Fred Bell, Programs and Operations Manager of The Debt Collective speaks with Nikki about how his perspective on debt has evolved since joining the organization. He talks about his passion for direct action and organizing to help communities disproportionately affected by the burden of all types of debt. Fred also shares The Debt Collective’s plans for direct action on April 4th to protest the end of the pause on student loan payments and advocate for student debt cancellation.
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Transcript –
Nikki Nolan: Welcome to the podcast. It is so good to have you here!
Fred: Thanks, Nikki. Yes, I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Nikki Nolan: I am so excited to have you here, but before we get into all the fun stuff about what the Debt Collective is doing around the protests, I want to know how much student debt you have?
Fred: So I have about $20,000 in student loan debt. I know it’s varying between a lot of different folks in demographics but, that’s about how much I have currently.
Nikki Nolan: What is your personal connection to student loans?
Fred: Student loan debt was something that I really got introduced to in high school because I mean, not initially, but I remember looking at colleges looking at out-of-state colleges and looking at the prices and the cost of how much it’s going to cost every year. And, knowing that, my parents can’t come out of pocket to pay for this.
I just knew that I was going to have to incur some kind of debt. So after applying to some colleges, mostly in-state because I just couldn’t fathom taking out, a hundred thousands of dollars in student debt. I even found the in-state colleges to be a little bit expensive because being in Seattle and Washington, it’s expensive.
Fred: I ultimately decided with my mom that it’d be best if I just went to a community college for a couple of years and transferred to a university to save money. And I mean, I’m thankful every day for that. I went to Seattle Central Community College for two years and that was an amazing experience. I really enjoyed it and didn’t incur any debt. So, that was great. But obviously having to transfer to a university, University of Washington and to be honest with you, mainly just living costs. I mean, my books and most of my tuition was paid for, but, rent and food. And, my brother moved to Seattle shortly thereafter, helping him out as well. Those things piled up and of course, I had to take out loans, for a lot of just personal things.
Nikki Nolan: What brought you to the Debt Collective?
Fred: So a little bit of a journey. After college I worked in the nonprofit sector for a couple of years, making little to no money, and struggling to get by and living with relatives. Loved the work but really didn’t like the structure of the nonprofit sector. And, I really thought that okay, if I’m really happy doing the work, but I’m not happy with the structure and how it’s set up and if it’s actually going to improve the material conditions of these folks. So I need to pay my bills and I need to pay my student loans. And so I decided to kind of jump to the corporate side. So I worked in community association management for a little bit, worked at a tech company for a while and it kind of landed me, eventually finding the Debt Collective just last year. One of my friends who I’ve organized with, for years, his best friend is very connected to the Debt Collective. So I got a job posting through the grapevine. And I was really, truly unhappy with my corporate nine to five grind all the time job and decided I was like, okay, let’s jump back into really having a job that revolves around, organizing and helping the community and social justice, racial justice. So, yeah, that’s, that’s what brought me here and I’m excited to be working for such a dope organization.
Nikki Nolan: Do you think about debt differently since you joined the Debt Collective?
Fred: Yeah, I think I really have a deep understanding about debt in the different debt types, including medical debt, housing debt, carceral debt, and student loan debt, all impact folks and to know that a lot of people are struggling with multiple these debt types.
I would say one of the things I’ve been very aware of now working at the Debt Collective is how sinister medical debt and how that piles and piles and people aren’t able to pay that. And how hospitals go after patients who haven’t paid their medical debt. And, I even heard stories about folks who are deceased and hospitals going after their family members.
So, yeah, there’s just a lot of different debt types. Like student lunch debt to think that that’s a thing in a lot of elementary schools and middle schools that keeps kids from eating every day. It’s just so sinister. And it’s just a deep-rooted issue. So, I think that the biggest takeaway I’ve gotten from Debt Collective is just realizing how much debt impacts folks from living their everyday lives and is a hurdle to getting folks to organize so we can ultimately combat these oppressive systems.
Nikki Nolan: What are some of the ways that you see this debt oppression impacting people that you talk to?
Fred: Yeah. I mean, I can go into a personal story of my father. He’s been incarcerated a couple of times over the past 20 years. and I would say the fees and the fines and the low wages, all of these things have just dramatically impacted his livelihood. And, after he was released- I think it’s been a year and a half now, July, 2020- he’s just finished paying some of his fees for probation, which is wild to me that there are, yeah, there are folks that have to pay for their own oppression. So I think that really being a part of the Debt Collective and learning about how intentional these systems are and seeing that impact people in my family, I’m okay, what can I do specifically to help? I live in Louisiana, and I know this is one of the states with the biggest carceral footprint. So, what can I do? What knowledge can I take to the Debt Collective, and use that to help organize folks in Louisiana or New Orleans area.
Nikki Nolan: Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate you opening up about that. I’m going to shift back to, how has working at the Debt Collective impacted your worldview?
Fred: I think to be honest with you mostly it’s the work culture. Being able to work with folks who are anti-capitalists, who are anti-racist, who are working towards abolition the mind frame, and understand how all these things are interconnected and that we can’t, be anti-racist and not anti-capitalist.
Those kinds of things I think have given me hope that there are people out there that are really fighting the good fight and that we can really do this, but we have to work hard, and we have to organize and get a lot of folks. Cause people, people are power. I think that my worldview has changed where before I felt I’m organizing my local area and trying to do mutual aid.
Fred: Doing a lot of more local things. But I think that it’s really dope to be a part of this national student debt campaign that if we can really get to full cancellation, that is going to dramatically change the lives of millions and millions of people. And it’s going to cause us to really be able to ramp this up and get some energy and some other oppressive systems that need to go.
Nikki Nolan: With all this great work that you’re doing, are you now influencing your friends and family? And if people could take anything away to influence their friends and family, what would that be?
Fred: Yeah, that’s a good question. When I started working for the Debt Collective, I was really looking and researching about the work they did. Because I was really afraid of getting into an organization that was kind of a part of the nonprofit, industrial complex and not really getting to the root cause of what’s occurring.
I think, when I was first coming aboard Debt Collective I’m okay, look, there’s a lot of people who know a lot about politics in DC and are really trying to fight the government or to really push back on the executive branch to cancel the student loan debt.
And I think that when I was having these conversations, I was okay. I don’t want to talk so much about DC. I want to get to the root cause I don’t want to work in the community and stuff. But I realized that okay, student loan debt is held by the government, the federal government.
So obviously that’s our target. And I think that what I’m trying to influence my friends and family is that. I’m a person that wants to organize and do a lot of direct-action work and not so much focus on DC. But I think that with every single, oppressive system, we really need to look at who is the stakeholder in this who is holding the power and we can be creative.
We can, we can, we can do it all. We can, we can push back on DC. We can build power with our union members. We can create committees. So we can research and we can come up with data and research. We can really back up our points. We can, there are a lot of different avenues that we can really, build power and pushback.
I think the main thing that I’m taking away from this and trying to influence my friends and family is that everyone has their own skills and their own strengths. And how can we utilize that for this movement? And if your talent is writing a strongly worded letter to your Congressperson, then do that.
If your strength is setting up a direct action in your city, let’s do that. But I think everyone has their own role in this fight. And even if you don’t have debt, this is a racial justice issue. This is a LGBTQ issue. This is an issue that’s affecting a lot of marginalized groups. So, yeah, long-winded answer.
Nikki Nolan: No, no, no, no. I think we got there and, yeah, that’s why I’m doing the podcast. I’m like, this is what I can contribute.
Fred: Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Nikki Nolan: So I’m going to switch a little. How has the Debt Collective continued to push Biden towards cancellation?
Fred: That’s a good question. As you know, the landscape has just changed. We thought payments were going to start, on February 1st, and then it was a 90-day extension, which is really interesting because he did say that he wasn’t pushing it back again. So, obviously, they, as Biden and his administration are realizing that they might be a little bit unpopular and we’re still going through the pandemic.
So it might be a little bit smart to do that. But yeah, so I think right now we have kind of this full-court press mindset right now, leading up to our rescheduled direct-action that’s on April 4th in DC. So obviously ultimately building power up to May 1st, which is when payments turn back on.
We’re doing this, we are doing this strategically, by building power through our membership and coalitions with other organizations and kind of trying to funnel all of our energy into different working groups. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of people want to be on a political team where they’re, putting heat on these politicians and elected officials, and these moderates to really push them, to push that administration.
We also have an Actions and Events team. I know that the Debt Collective is really famous for doing these debt burns and these debt assemblies where people courageously talk about how much debt they have and how it’s impacted their lives. And I think these things are important. Teach-ins, walkouts panels, things like that to really get the word out and obviously this podcast as well. It’d be dope to get more podcasts out there.
Then we also have a coalition working group that’s really trying to build up our partnerships. Lots of organizations are also on the full student loan cancellation tip right now. So it’s like how can we work together to just move this passable line? I mean, I think this is an opportune moment and it’s such a big topic right now.
Fred: I mean, I’m on Twitter all the time and I just see people just talking about it that have never really engaged in politics or organizing before. So, this is a good moment. But also we definitely understand social media, art design and communications, we really want to bump that up too, because with all these new social media, these Twitter spaces and these tik toks. It’s such a dope way of spreading information fast and organizing through different methods. We want to reach out to every demographic, every age demographic, because even students who are not in college yet, we can’t advocate for full cancellation and then not have a pathway towards free college because that’s really just going to keep the issue going on for generations and for generations.
All these different working groups that we have are really focusing on building power up to April 4th and this direct-action, which we are working out the details right now. The day of direct-action, we really want it to be something where everyone can attend and we want it to be a powerful statement, but also we want it to be a direct-action. We want to do something in DC to really show that we’re serious about this. Whether that’s an occupation or a sit in or something like that.
We want to show these folks in DC that we’re serious. And I don’t think that we need legislation on the floor. I think that we’ve already made it clear that Biden has the power to cancel this debt with one signature and we’re not going to accept anything less.
Nikki Nolan: So this direct-action that’s going to be on April 4th can you tell me a little bit more about it? I know you don’t have all the details right now, but if people wanted to follow it or get more involved, take part in having their voices being heard around the country, what are the things people can do?
Fred: Right, the details are still being worked out, because we initially had it scheduled for this month, but since it got pushed back, we had to make a quick pivot. I think first off following us on Twitter, @strikedebt. Follow us on Instagram, @debtcollective, and at www.debtcollective.org. Join the union, you don’t have to pay any dues. Those things are really important right now just to get connected because obviously the landscape is changing day by day. Then for the direct-action, I think what we’re really planning is to number one, do an in-person debtors assembly.
We have just done one, in a virtual debtors assembly, but we want to do an in-person one because you understand how powerful it is for people to come forward and share their stories. A lot of people have shame around their debt and I think, being able to relate to a lot of different people and understand that we’re all affected by this in one way, shape or form is really important.
So that’s a big aspect. And music is one of the things that I really enjoy about organizing. We want to get a band there, maybe make some noise. We want to have an art installation, something to really engage with. Folks that come out and support us. Maybe something that’s interactive, something that if people can take pictures and kind of have signs or something to show that, hey, I have this much debt. Or I have this much debt. This affected me this way. But I think, yeah, those kinds of things really can help people understand that, yeah, this is affecting all of us. And with the debtors assembly and art media aspect of our action, we do want to do some marching around, maybe, do a sit-in or some kind of direct-action that’s really going to get the attention of some of the politicians, and Congresspeople that are in DC right now. So right now I think that’s pretty much what we have planned. Obviously we’re still in a pandemic, so we want to stay safe, and we want to encourage folks who can’t make it to plug in any way they can. It’s going to be important to show up and show out on April 4th. We’re just looking forward to it.
Nikki Nolan: What do you feel is your career beyond the Debt Collective? What are your hopes and dreams?
Fred: To be honest with you, I have no idea. All I know is what I don’t want to do. And what I don’t want to do is to go back to a corporate job where I’m just sacrificing my happiness for my money.
I know that I’m only truly happy when I see myself in my work and working in the community, organizing and mutual aid work is what fuels me. I think that I want to continue doing that in any capacity I can, because it’s just not me- I can’t do the 9 to 5 grind. I don’t want to work for an organization that my bottom line isn’t contributing to humanity in any sort of way, and, worse off, really perpetuating a lot of these capitalist systems.
I feel a lot of the work that I have done to me may have aligned with more capitalist values. I’m just really happy to be part of an organization right now that encompasses my ethics and morals and principles. and hopefully my career would be long at the Debt Collective and I’m looking forward to organizing in other spaces as well. The sky’s the limit right now.
Nikki Nolan: So we’re getting close to the end. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you about that you want to talk about?
Fred: I think I just wanted to highlight and I mentioned a couple of times that this is really, also a racial justice issue. You know, as a black man, I realize all of the hurdles that I had to jump through in order to just get a bachelor’s degree and then to get it and be like, okay, what did I get this for?
What is this doing for me right now? Not necessarily a myth, but what we’re kind of fed early on is that, in order to be successful, whatever success looks like, is to go to university, maybe get your graduate degree maybe, become a doc, you know, all these different, amazing career paths.
But I think that, obviously, even trying to move up this ladder of whatever success looks like we’re burdened by a lot of the debt that we have to put on in order to get that education. It’s just the way that capitalism has seeped its way into higher education as, just really, really if this portion only affected, black and brown folks.
So I just wanted to highlight that. This needs to be on the forefront of a lot of racial justice topics because there’s studies that show that student loan debt, disproportionately affects not only black people, but black women. This is a gender issue as well. A lot of people in the forefront of this movement, maybe come from a more privileged background. And I think that, passing the mic to folks that are actually disproportionately affected by this and really making sure that those voices are heard the most is going to be integral and us getting this across the goal line. So wanted to definitely plug that. And, thank you so much for, letting me come on your podcast and run my mouth, but, yeah.
Nikki Nolan: Thank you so much for being here and sharing your voice and sharing your story and sharing all this amazing stuff. Before we go, is there anything that you want to promote?
Fred: What I really want to promote is folks to join the Debtors’ Union at www.debtcollective.org. Again, it’s, it’s free. You don’t have to have a monthly due amount. It would be dope to have more people, especially people of color, a part of our union. And, yeah, I really want to plug a lot of people into these working groups that we have going on in the next couple of months and ultimately build power. We can get this canceled because we have a lot more debt to tackle. You can find us at www.debtcollective.org.
Nikki Nolan: Thank you so much for being here. This has been wonderful. I’m excited for April 4th and the fight towards May 1st.
Fred: I’m excited too. And I can’t wait to see you there.
Nikki Nolan: If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, please share it with a friend. And don’t forget to rate and subscribe to these episodes. It really helps with having people discover us.
Matter of Life and Death is produced by Emma Klauber and me, Nikki Nolan. Emma also writes the information and transcript about each episode. A special thanks to Efe Akmen for creating the music for this podcast.
Visit our website matteroflifeindebt.com, where you can listen, access free transcripts, get additional context for the subjects you just heard about absolutely for free the website again, matteroflifeanddebt.com. Thanks again for listening.
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