After life threw them a few curveballs, this week’s guest, who chooses to remain anonymous, paid for graduate school as well as their existing student loans from undergraduate, in cash by delivering weed on their bike. They left graduate school with zero student loan debt.

After undergrad, “Green” was engaged to a person they met in art school and had planned to WWOOF in Europe before settling down with their fiancé. But when they arrived in Belgium, their fiancé left them and took off with their things, forcing them to find their way back. They spent the summer working first in Belgium and then in India, where again they found themself stranded without a job or home.

When they finally arrived back in the US they were offered a weed delivery job that would help them pay down their student loans and get them on their feet. When they decided to go to graduate school, they found that they were able to save enough money working the job to pay the $5,500 needed to cover their tuition every month, and then some. When faced with budgeting for graduate school, Green says that paying in cash made them that much more aware of the cost of education and expected more from their degree. “When you realize you’re paying $60 a minute for college, you want class to happen on time.”

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Transcript

Nikki: I’m Nikki Nolan. And this is A Matter of Life and Debt, a show about people in the United States and their student debt. Today’s episode: “Going Green to Get Out of the Red.” My guest today has asked to remain anonymous. We talk about what it is like to have a job that pays in cash. This job along with having a strong will to be successful and also living minimally and saving, allowed them to pay off a six-figure grad program in cash.

This is their story.

Welcome. Thank you so much. Let’s get into those. How much debt do you have?

Green: Oh, technically, I had $42 grand before I started grad school, but I actually planned it out so that I paid my hundred and some in grad school while I was in school.

Nikki: What, how did you do that?

Green: I found myself in a job where I made cash and I made enough cash. And I’m also a simple person. I’ll have four shirts, a couple of pairs of shoes. And like, that’s really all I need. And I have a bike so I didn’t have a car or anything like that. I didn’t have crazy rent cause I worked it out to be feasible. So I would just, for about two or three years, literally just stacked cash, just stack, stack, stack, stack. And I am very neurotic. So I planned it out where I was like, okay, grad school is going to be a hundred thousand dollars.

That’s $5,500 a month for 20 months. Right? Cause you’ve got two months in the summer that you have off. And I was like, all right, so I’m going to save 5,500 in the stack and put it in the safe. And then I, I basically paid for grad school in cash.

Nikki: it’s just like quite amazing. I’ve heard you have come up with lots of different methods of measuring things and figuring things out. You figured out how much class costs per minute

Green: it was painful. That’s the thing when you pay for school like that, you’re like, how much is this going to cost me? So the thought is like, if you’re paying $60 a minute, I want class to happen. And I want people to show up and like $60 for me because I ride a bike. It’s like $60 is three runs, like three deliveries. Right? So for every minute, I have to do two hours for the work. And it’s like, all right, with the exchange on that is wild. But for me, it’s like, important to have that note because it really conceptualizes the value of school, whether or not that lines up. And like the effort put in to be able to go to school. Which is something that like, I am very privileged to have. Not everyone can work two hours in exchange for a minute, for two years where at the school that’s wild, you know?

Nikki: Yeah. Have you always been this organized or –
Green: I think part of it is, ADD and being like, okay- growing up there was only one option. That option was success. There was no failure. There was no option for failure. You either figured it out or you figured it out a different way. And that’s just how my dad was. He was like, we don’t fail in this family.

And so for me, it was like, okay, I have a really hard time focusing. So reading is a no-go. History out the window. Very good at math and science, cause they’re like tiny little parts. Right? You can like- and so like being meticulous was a way to control that ADD where I was like, okay, I’ll map things out so I don’t forget them. I’ll have lists and I’ll do it piecemeal. Right?

And that’s kind of how saving up like that is, is easy and in a way mentally, cause you’re like, okay, I’m piecemealing it. Instead of saying what is a hundred thousand dollars? I think a lot of people, even outside of grad school can’t conceptualize that. I don’t know what a hundred thousand dollars is. That’s just a large number. But when you look at it, like, okay, I’m going to save a hundred dollars every week for the next, however many. Right. It becomes this small thing that you can kind of package. So I think that’s, that’s kind of how I did it.

Nikki: So I feel like this is a good point to step back. Let’s get into you. Let’s talk a little bit more about you. How did you get here? How did you get to this moment in time in which we are talking?
Let’s start with early school. Did you want to become who you are? Did you want to become the degree you ended up getting early on?

Green: So school, I actually took college-level classes like AP and all those other terms. I went to school in Virginia and Hawaii, so they have different letters, whatever those acronyms are for you’re taking smart kid classes, AP, ICA- I don’t know.

But I was taking those when I was a freshman through senior for science and math. My trajectory since I was little was a doctorate, science doctorate. I either wanted to do brain surgery or I wanted to be a veterinarian. And we’re going to base that out of, kind of like, what my test scores were and like how I got placed in school. Got scholarships to go to certain schools didn’t for the school I chose. It was closer to home and I was like, all right. So I ended up going to undergrad under the idea that I was going to be studying science. And I was going to be studying for my Ph.D.
I got there and I was like, you know what, man? I don’t want to be behind a desk. I don’t want to be in a lab. I sure don’t want to tell someone’s family that I can’t save their daughter, their son, or their mom and her dad.

Like, that’s not a reality I emotionally can handle. And on my dad’s side of the family, they’re all either nurses or in the military. And then on my step mom’s side, they’re all teachers. Every single one of them is a teacher. And I was like, these are things I don’t want to do.

And so I got there and I was like, alright, you know, what is something I’m really bad at that I’m also really interested in? That I’m never going to get tired of? And I was like, photo. That’s what I’m going to do. So I switched into photography and at that point, my dad was like, I can’t pay for a photo degree. I’m not, I’m not down for that.

Wouldn’t have gone to school if I knew you weren’t gonna pay for it, but all right. So I just kept on trucking on, I worked nights three weeks on top of going to school because my dad made so much money that I didn’t get school covered. So I had to pay for part of my tuition plus all my other things. And art is expensive.

If for those of you who are listening, who don’t know that, art is wildly expensive. Especially photo. You have film. You have paper. Your cameras. I hate digital things so I went the hard way. And so I was like, alright, I got to work to pay this off, got through school. I was like, awesome. I graduated what now?

And at the time I was engaged and- that was a choice that I made- and we were supposed to move to Italy. Italy is going to be fine. I’ll teach photo. You’ll go to grad school. We’ll be an awesome couple. It can be great.

And in the meantime, I’m going to work on a farm. So I went to Belgium to help build eco-houses and to work as a sous chef. So you split the days. And then it was like a work exchange for like three or four days I would be a line cook or a sous chef. And three or four days, I would work on building this house. And you’d dig stones and you’d lay walls or you put in eco-materials. One day, you could, like, make an eco-toilet. And you’re like, okay. I can get down with this. It’s kind of artistic.

I feel like food is pretty and takes some sort of like weird concoction, and the same building walls. Right? Like you got to mismatch these stones. And I get there. And my fiancé’s like, you know what? Man, I don’t want to do this anymore. And I don’t want to explain to you why. And I don’t want to give you any of your things. And you definitely can’t move in with me.
So yeah, we’re done. And I was like, bah, awesome.

Nikki: When what was that? Like how old were you around that –

Green: Twenty-one, almost 22. So a baby. A certified child-adult. So that was rough. I was like, not prepared. I was like, we’re in love. I’m picking out rings. Nope, Nope, Nope. So that was a dumpster fire. And from there, the chef was like, oh, you can build things and you can work in the kitchen.
And I was like, yeah, I can do both of those. And she was like, and you’re definitely too poor to fly home to the States. And I was like, and there’s nothing there for me. So. She was like, cool, why don’t you come with me to India? You’ll help me build my kitchen and help me do my cookbook. And in exchange, I’ll make sure that you’re fed and like, you don’t die.

And I was like, that’s great. I like the sound of that. I’m in India. She ends up abandoning me because her dad gets sick. And she’s like, okay, I’m leaving tomorrow. I wish you good luck. Bye. And I was like, oh, cool. So four more months in India and I have no idea what I’m doing.
I speak a small amount of Hindi. I have no money cause like, you know, just graduated college. And I live in the middle of nowhere and I have nothing with me. I end up managing a Buddhist indie band. Going to the Dalai Lama teachings. Leaving managing the band to go work in a desert camp, and then find myself running a cafe on the complete other side of India.

And at this point I’m like, all right, I can do this. I’m making $20 a week. I’m working 40 to 60 hours a week. That’s a good wage in India. And I don’t know what I’m doing with my life. And I can’t drink any water because none of their running water’s fine. I still don’t have any of my things.

I’m finally fed up and I’m like, okay, I have a college degree. I’m doing nothing with my life. No one speaks English and I’m stuck in this country. So I find a very weird plane to get back to the States. And at the time, my best friend from undergrad was like, hey, I’m living with this drug dealer. And I don’t like him. Can you please come and take his place? And I was like, yeah, I have nothing. And no plans in life. End up being very broke, living on the floor, no mattress, no clothes. They lost my bag at the airport. No money, no prospects. And I’m like, alright, what do I do?

Then, he was the one I was living with was like, it took me like six months to find a job. And I was like, oh, I’m so screwed. Great. End up finding a job in a week.

Nikki: What?

Green: Yup.

Nikki: What year? What year was this?

Green: 2013. I moved here December 29th, 2013.

Nikki: Well, it was so hard back then, like in that timeframe to find jobs. Cause I graduated in 2011. It took me an entire year to find a job, and then I only made $37,000 a year out of grad school at Pratt.

Green: Oh, yeah. That’s rough. I was making $7 an hour, minimum wage trying to pay for things. And I was a line cook and I was like, cool, this is fine. I get to like drink and hang out with my boss. Immediately following that, like two weeks later, I got a job in a juice bar. And I was like, great, two jobs. I’m used to that.

Still broke. I do this for like a year and a half. And I get to a point where I’m like, I can’t live like this. I’m working all the time. I have no money. I have so much debt just like tacking on dollars, right? Because you have interests and you push them off for so long.

And I run into a friend at a bar and she’s like, so I worked for this delivery company. Good for you. And she was like, well, you like to ride a bike. And I was like, yeah, I love riding a bike. And she was like, well, do you want to work for me? And I was like, I mean, yeah, but what do you deliver? She was like, Oh, we deliver weed. You’re drunk at the bar. And you’re like messing with me. And she was like, no, man, I’m serious.

And I was like, cool. Then we’ll see, talk about it tomorrow. So I hit her up the next day and I’m on my way to a nanny gig. I’m watching three children. Right? I’m on the phone talking about weed and I’m like, OK, I know nothing about weed. I haven’t smoked since I was in high school. Is this real?
And she was like, yeah, it’s very real. Why don’t you ride along one day? And we’ll see how it works out. I was like, okay. So a week or two later, she calls me. She’s like, all right, meet me uptown.

Ride the 14 miles. She’s gone by the time I get there, obviously. And she’s like great, meet me here. We do this for another three or four hours. It starts pouring rain. And eventually, I’m like, dude am I meeting you or am I not meeting you? You’re like, what’s happening. She’s like, ah, nah, I can’t meet today. Like, okay.

I go home another week goes by. She’s like, all right, come hang out with me. Ride another ridiculous amount of miles in the rain. She’s like, all right, you’re going to be hired. I was like, that’s it? She’s like, yeah, get a bag. And you’re just gonna ride along and train with me one day. I was like, okay, sounds good.

So, I start doing that. The first day is a mess. So I’m just riding around, just winging it. I’m like, yeah, I know how much this costs, texting someone being like, how much does this cost? Like meeting crazy people and like selling weed, and holding on to cash and being like, am I going to get robbed? What’s happening? Apparently, I didn’t bomb. And within a few weeks I was riding four or five days a week, 12 hours a day, slowly working out of quitting my other jobs, but like starting to make money and being like, Oh, it’s- I can actually survive in this city without starving. And I’ve been doing that ever since. Now I kind of am Manager. I rode this week, but I don’t usually ride anymore because I make more money as a manager. And it seems kind of shitty to take a rider’s shift away from them so that I can ride. I can just go on a jog. You know what I mean? I don’t need to do that.

Nikki: That’s so fascinating. What a whirlwind. It sounds like you have this sort of inner drive to keep moving forward, to keep succeeding even when things sort of like smack you in the face or go in a totally different direction. Where does your motivation or inspiration come from?

Green: I think a lot of it is from childhood, of me being like, there is no room for failure. Which has set me up for a lot of things. Like I have many skills. And people are like, why are you good at so many things? And it’s like, well, because I needed to learn this skill instead of being like, well, I don’t know it, the option, and the only option, is you figure out how to do it.

And so when I got here, I was like, well, I don’t have anywhere else to live. And I have to pay off my debt. So the only option is to figure out how to make that happen. And so that’s kind of where I got to with the first initial paying off my debt.

And so, same situation as grad school, I was like, okay, I’m not gonna let myself have anything nice. Which is a bit masochist. I know, but I was like, nothing nice until you pay off your debt. No traveling, no expensive things. No nothing. You’re not going out to fancy dinners. You will pay off your debt and then you can live your life like a normal person because you’ll be free. And then it won’t matter.

And so that’s just what I did. I just grinded. And I love exercise. I love working out. I love being tired. And so for me, I was like, okay, 12 hour days are great. And even after that, I’d still go out. If you were to ask my friend, it would always be like, I work a shift, you get off at 10. And then I would just bike to wherever we were going to party, just like smash drinks and hang out and dance and be crazy. And then go to bed at three and then get up at nine the next morning and do it again.

And when you get used to it, it just becomes normal. Right? I don’t think I could do that now. I think I’d wake up and I’d be like, oh no, I hate everyone. And I’m not going to work.

You know, that’s part of getting old and also getting out of the rhythm. And so I was like, okay, I paid off all my debt. And then I was like, alright, what do I have in life? Nothing. How was I going to have a dog? I don’t have a car. I don’t have a wife or husband or person. I don’t, I don’t have any of these things that society says I need to have, except I’m debt-free.

I was like, all right, well, the next step is grad school. Cause I want to teach and you can’t teach unless you have a graduate degree. Which is dumb.

Nikki: It’s so dumb. And what’s even dumber is some grad schools aren’t teaching schools. And you don’t, I didn’t realize that cause I also wanted to be a professor, and the school I decided to go to wasn’t a teaching school. And so when I graduated, I couldn’t find any teaching things. Cause you need like a year of – even if it’s just a graduate teaching position, you need that to break into actually being a teacher. At least back in 2011 when I got there.

Green: I’m sure you still need it now. And like, because of the rules that are I, I too am in this circumstance where for four semesters straight, I was a teacher’s aid. But because of how they qualify it at the university I went to, it was like, that’s it. You’re not a TA, you’re a graduate assistant. I was like, but I’m a TA. I help teach. And if you ask the professor, she will say, she helped me teach the class.

Nikki: Yep.

Green: But it just, yeah, it’s wild. And for me, by the time I got into school and I had saved up for it, I was like, I’ve been doing this for three years now. I’ve been saving and waiting. If I don’t go, I’m not going. And if I’m not going, I need to replan my whole life. So I’m just going to go. You know? And, hindsight, maybe not the right choice, but who knows. We’ll find out.

yeah, it’s been crazy, but I think the end goal has always been teaching adults.

Nikki: No waitressing.

Green: Heavy on the adults.

Nikki: Yes.

Green: No children for me.

Nikki: What made you decide to go to the school that you decided to go to? Did you apply to other schools? Were you accepted into other schools, or was this your number one university that you went to?

Green: I applied to a few schools and this school that I actually got into was not a choice at all. I was like, oh, I kind of applied, and this is ridiculous as a joke. I don’t think I had any teacher recommendations or references. I think I just half filled out the application was like, sure, boom, send it in. Cause I was like, I don’t know, this sounds fine. And it was the only one that I got accepted to. And I think what really sold me was my interview. I’m sitting in this interview being like, who is this crazy woman? And how do I get her to be in my life?

Nikki: Yeah. So you ended up doing an interview for this university and you got in. And you just really liked the person that you interviewed with and was like, yeah, I want to be at this school with this person.

Green: Oh yeah. They were fantastic. And I was like, I’ve got it set up so that I can pay it off. I think at this point, maybe it was like more expensive than what I was hoping for. Right? I wanted the school that I wanted to was a teaching school. And so they had assistantship scholarships and such. And I was like, okay, whatever. I got a scholarship. That’ll help me pay part of it and I’ll work while I’m in school. I’ll still work full-time. It’ll just be my reality. And then by the time I’m out, I’ll be debt-free.

I’ll have my MFA. I’ll be happy. And I get to hang out with this cool person all the time. That’s great. And then, the rest is history. Finished that two years. It was quite atrocious and I survived.

Nikki: By the time you graduated, you paid it off.

Green: Yeah. I paid it off two months before graduation, so April.

Nikki: I think that it’s a tribute to that you’ve always had to pull yourself through a lot of this stuff and figure out your own stuff, that you figured this out early on.

It’s really amazing that you were like, Oh, this does actually- you realized it upfront that it costs money. And most of us understood that but didn’t actually take action.

Green: Yeah. It doesn’t sink in. And I think that’s true for a lot of things, but the problem with artists, and writers, and dancers, and performers- and pretty much anyone who’s never really going to make large, like six-figures a year, unless you become famous. You’re not going to make six-figures doing what you went to school for-

Nikki: Yes-

Green: -unless you’re famous, right? It’s hard to swallow that. You’re like sure, sure, sure. I’ll be able to just pay that off over time. My friend’s a lawyer. Right? And her first summer, she gets an internship making $60 grand for a summer. I was like, I officially just want to strangle you. That’s wild. I was like, I literally just drove 25 miles to pick up Tupperware to make $250 to do the like 10 hours worth of work as an artist. You can just sit on the phone for 15 minutes and make the same. Mind-blowing.

So for her she’s like, yeah, $200 grand in lawyer debt, whatever. It’ll be gone in five years. No problem. She’s like, Oh, blink and it’ll be disappeared. And so when you go in like that, I was like, I can’t do that. I cannot be shackled for my whole life. My dad didn’t pay off his debt until he was like 42.

I was like, I’m not going to do that. I want to be cool and smart and like fun like my dad, and have multiple degrees. Be great at everything, but without the debt. Who wants to be 42 and like still a slave to the machine? Nobody. But most people are just like, I’ll figure it out. That’s not really a game plan. You know what I mean?

Nikki: Absolutely not a game plan that ‘I’ll just figure it out.’ That’s the game plan I was rolling with. Almost everybody is rolling with that because they’re so overwhelmed. But they’re overworked. They’re underpaid. A lot of people are just so exhausted that they don’t have time to take a step back and be like- and the thing is if you don’t take that step back and evaluate the situation you’re in, it’s just waiting for a world of pain.

Green: And I think that’s what really hit me after undergrad. I was like, oh my god. I have an extra 4k just in interest. I was like, how has it even been that long? Just stacking on top. And I was like, no way. There’s no way. I was like, even if I just pick interest payments every month, I’m only ever going to pay for interest.

And that’s still hundreds of dollars. So it was like, I’m just going to pay off the maximum possible I can every month. I mean, that’s, my advice is to put as much as you can in there as much as possible. And just like, live a little bit weaker for a little while.

Nikki: Yeah, I, I did something stupid. I paid off my loans like three weeks ago and then literally a week after I paid off my loans, I bought a van. Now. my bank account looks really, really low and I’m just like panicking.

Green: Don’t panic. It’ll come back. Don’t panic. That’s the worst is when you’re like, oh, I did a great thing. And then you panic. That’s what I did when I paid off my loans. I was like, I paid off my loans! And then within 10 seconds, I was already upset again.

I was like, but now there’s no money in my safe. What am I going to do? Was this worth it? And so I don’t think I’ve ever felt the joy of having no debt because I just immediately went into being like, Oh, now I’m in a deficit again. Because I don’t have savings, which isn’t actually a deficit, but when you’re used to having that money, like, stowed away, it feels like a deficit.

Same with the van, right? Where you’re like, oh, okay, I’m good. Something happened, I’m fine. And then you buy this van. You’re like dope, I have a new toy. And then it doesn’t- the new toy doesn’t equate to that number in your mind. Cause if something happened, you could sell the van.

Nikki: Right. It’s true. It’s true.

Green: That’s not what the mind says. The mind says, shoot! I have a van and no money. Well, the van is also still money. It’s just money in van form.

Nikki: It is. It’s so true. It’s, but yeah. So since I’d paid off my loans, I’ve had this hole, this, yeah. I’ve had this- I know it will come back, but I kind of imagined I was going to pay it off and then all of a sudden it was going to be ‘Freedom!’ And really what it was was, a week of relief and then I was like, oh my god I actually have some money. And we are stuck in Rona times. And I’m like, I would like to start an artist residency program and I don’t have a car. And so I was actually going to buy a car, but decided to buy a Westfalia Vanagon van. A 1987 camper van with the kitchen in it so that I could drive all across America. But then realized I have a job and it’s really hard in some parts of America to get internet.

So it was like this fantasy dream. I mean, I think a lot of my happiness comes from fantasy future times. Like most people do. I could think, like, I don’t know, I don’t think it’s abnormal, but I think that building up this like, Oh, it’s going to be free. I’m going to feel so much better. And then it doesn’t happen all of a sudden you’re just like, it’s not that. There’s some other things underneath that rock that I need to deal with.

Green: Oh, damn. Should’ve worked on this therapy instead of just paying off my debt, but yeah. Yep. Been there. But the van doesn’t need renovating.

Nikki: No. Oh. So that’s the reason that I got it. Like, so I had been looking for a van for a few months and most of them needed hardcore renovation, new engines, new transmissions, lots of fixing. And this van was nearly perfect. The only thing it needed, it needed one part in the transmission. And so it was sort of like the circumstances weren’t quite right to buy it yet. Cause like, I felt like I hadn’t saved enough, but the van is perfect. Like it’s- knock on some wood, but she’s really, she’s a wonderful van. Anyways sidetrack. Yeah, the van is great. I like it a lot, and hopefully, it will bring joy. But you know, I’m not going to put that on that van. I’m not going to put my joy on that van.

I have to find that from the inside. That needs to come from me. Yeah. So, okay. Back to back to this, right?

Green: That was my fault. Sorry for the segue.

Nikki: Segues are fun. It’s good to learn about vans. Vans are really cool.

Green: Right.

Nikki: All right. I think we’re coming to the end of our time. And so what I like doing now is the- if you could give yourself advice either before grad school or before undergrad, what would you give yourself? Or you can also give advice, general advice.

Green: I think the advice that I would give to myself and people who behave similarly to me, like hyper-driven people. I think what I should have been told and never really was told was that it is equally as important to have moments of breath where you just live your life and give yourself things that you want. And also things that you need, in exchange for the grind.

I never really gave myself a break to like take time off or enjoy making money, or like enjoy my community. And what happened is you get so wrapped up in that, that you lose all those things. And you don’t realize somewhere in that mess, how important they are. When you come out on the other end, it’s very hard to figure out how to get back there. Cause you’re now old, like not old, old, but you’re not like young and in a moment where you can make friends really easy. And making friends becomes hard and taking time is hard. And really just being able to check-in with yourself. You’re like, I don’t think I have that skill.

I don’t know how to sit down and be like, What do you need today? It’s more like, this is my checklist. And I think for people who are like that, it’s super important to say no, today I’m going to take two hours and I’m just going to not. I’m just going to not. Or today I’m going to take myself out to lunch. Or I’m going to go watch a movie on my phone, in the park since we’re in ‘Rona times.

Nikki:  Matter of Life and Debt is produced by me Nikki Nolan.  

Special thanks to Efe Akmen for creating the music and mastering the audio. 

Additional support and thanks to Sarah Thibault  who writes the information and transcripts about each episode. 

This podcast would not have been possible without them. 

Visit our website for more information matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen, read transcripts, get additional context of the subjects you just heard about, and subscribe- absolutely for free. That website again, matteroflifeanddebt.com. Thanks again for listening.

 

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