This episode we hear from artist and writer Sarah Thibault who accumulated six figures worth of debt after attending a private art school (that is now closing) and then graduate school where she received her MFA.

After graduate school she eventually worked at a number of jobs outside her field to pay off her loans and credit card debt, but despite her efforts ended up missing 6 monthly payments. Years later when she was able to take bigger strides to improve her financial health, she discovered that those six late payments translated to 48 marks on her credit score.

Sarah shares her decision to ultimately leave the 9-5 corporate world to travel to artist residencies in Europe and Mexico where she worked remotely as a Marketing Specialist for a cannabis start-up in the Bay Area for two years. Now back in the US, she has a new perspective towards money and debt, and is able to stay (relatively) positive despite her financial limitations.

 

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Transcript

Nikki: This is A Matter of Life and Debt, a show about people in the United States and their student debt. Today’s episode Don’t Let Debt Define You. I talked with artist Sarah Thibault. This was our second interview. I initially interviewed her back in 2018, but from both of our chats, I really learned from her about how you can have a lot of debt, but not let it drag you down or ruin your ambitions. I was really inspired about her relationship to her debt.

This is her story.

Welcome to the podcast. I’m so happy you are here today. Speaking with me, we’re going to talk about your loans. I am really curious about your loan situation. We did talk before. I am not going to use that episode because it wasn’t very linear. It was a little all over the place and it was because of me. So I’m very happy that you agreed to come back.

Sarah: Oh my god, totally. Well, I think, you know more. I think I know more. I’m trying to remember exactly when it was.

Nikki: Two years ago. It was 2018. Yeah.

Sarah: Woo. Yeah. Oh, man. So I was probably in a similar place with where my loans are, but yeah, a lot has changed. So this is cool.

Nikki: So how much money do you owe on your loans currently?

Sarah: Because of the coronavirus regulations I don’t pay my public loans. My federal loans, I owe six figures on those. So I kind of have accepted them as a burden that I will wear until I die- unless I sell a book like, you know, Obama who famously paid off a hundred thousand dollars in debt because he sold his book finally. But, my private loans, I’ve been working really hard at because they make you pay them regardless.

So I refinanced those around the time that we first spoke and have just been diligently paying them. I think there was one month where I was able to do a break in it. I think I paid off- it would be $400 a month for two years. So whatever that comes out to. It’s not a lot.

I think they’re at $55k right now. I think if I got a kind of more nine to five job – I’m currently doing freelancing- I could probably tackle that. Right now I’m just like, this is a monthly payment. I’m not going to go overboard. Who knows what the future holds. I am just really going with the flow right now.

Nikki: So you were saying that you have six digits in, in federal loans and about $5,500 in private loans.

Sarah: $55,000.

Nikki: $55,000. That’s what I meant to say.

Sarah: I was like, there’s quite a difference.

Nikki: So much money. Yeah. So you had $55,000 in the-

Sarah: – private loan

Nikki: Private loan. Talk a little bit about what happened with your late payments.

Sarah: Yeah. I transitioned after grad school from cafe jobs and then eventually- and I was selling some artwork and I was trying to be freelancey- and was making so little money that the system supports you. And then I got a job where I wasn’t making that little money.

So I had payments due and I had some credit card debt built up from that. And so I kept kind of getting office jobs that would help me pay a little bit more. But then something happened in there where I just stopped paying my loans for six months.

And I don’t know if I thought they were being refinanced or something. , I don’t really know. You know, it’s one of those things where it’s a weird time in your life and you lose track of your paperwork. I just didn’t know if it would be a big deal. And I didn’t really think about my credit score at the time.

in hindsight you know, they would send you these emails. And finally, I was like, okay, I’ll deal with this. I’ve been pushing it off. And then I checked in, and they were like, Oh yeah, we can do- it’s super easy. It’ll solve whatever question you had.

Months after that, I finally looked at my credit score and started thinking, how can I boost my financial health and realized, Oh, this is pretty bad. Years later, I was really making strides to improve my financial health, thinking about getting a home loan or something and realizing, probably this is what’s keeping my score low.

Before I didn’t have any money and I had credit card debt. So I felt, well, probably it’s a lot of the factors that are affecting my credit score, but then when I improved all that other stuff, I realized, no, it’s probably the 48 marks on my credit score.

So then I started doing the research around, how do I get them to reduce it? Because it was really for six payments, but it hits for every tiny little loan you have within that. Which in some ways shows how many loans I have.

I just don’t know what to do. I’ve gone through a couple of the steps: written the letter and requested them to reevaluate their decision. And they just put a little file note, ” The person requesting the change has disputed the response,” which is no, we will not reduce your late marks. So it feels criminal to me, to be honest.

Nikki: That’s so mind-bogglingly inferioriating. I can’t even say the word. I’m furious! I’m speechless. I’m so furious that that happens.

Sarah: Oh, it was 2015 and they, and I know that at some point it will go off. I think it’s seven years. Right?

Nikki: I am not sure. I know that if something happens to your house, insurance removes it from it after five years. But that’s not a corollary. So I don’t actually know the answer if it’s seven years or- seven years is bankruptcy or, foreclose,

Sarah: And right some marks go off after two. And so I tried going through some of the older charges, or I miss ed a credit card payment or something and… I should just try again in 2021. Maybe they’ll be more forgiving to given everything that’s happening.

Nikki: Yeah. Have you tried recently to do it?

Sarah: I tried in the fall of 2019. So it was recent enough. Yeah.

Nikki: You might want to try now since they’re doing all this really interesting stuff where they have the 0% and they’re not charging people. People don’t have to make payments right now.

And what’s really, really interesting is all of the payments you’re not making currently during the Corona times during this.

Sarah: – count as actual

Nikki: – payments. So they go towards forgiveness because undergraduate loans are forgiven after 20 years if they’re federal. Grad school loans are forgiven after 25 years if they’re federal. But again, it might become taxable income, which means that you have to pay taxes on what is forgiven. And so that could be…

Sarah: well. So I met with a loan advisor. He helped me refinance my private loans and we had talked about what it would look like if I did actually get my loans forgiven in 20 years. And I made whatever standard payments they were required at the time. And we figured out that I would have to pay $90,000 to get my loans forgiven because it would be that much taxable income.

And so then that would require me. Paying $300 or so dollars into savings a month to be able to afford that payout in 20 years. So I’m like this is absurd. I am not really sure how to feel about any of it.

Nikki: It’s so, so confusing. That’s what happened to me too. I talked to a student loan lawyer who specifically was trying to help me figure out my loan situation and his advice was to pay the minimum, get on the lowest income-based repayment plan and pay for 25 years and then have it forgiven.

So I switched from the Pay As You Earn to the income-based or vice versa- whatever’s the lower one. And within the three months, I went from $ 146,000 to $153,000 cause, they make you go into forbearance during the time you have to pay this $5. You have to remember to pay the $5, which is- it’s very confusing. The situation-

Sarah: I remember that? Yeah.

Nikki: So I went in for three months, and when I came out the other end, it was so much more money and my new payment after I went onto that was like $1,200 a month. And at that rate, I would have already paid it off in 12 years, but I would have paid like $400,000.

Sarah: Wow.

Nikki: And I was like, this is horrible advice. That’s why I committed to paying it off. That’s why I was like in the situation I’m in. I need to just give in and commit. And commit that I’m going to just pay it off because I just looked at the numbers longterm and it was going to just be- it was just going to be detrimental. So that’s why I decided to do that.

And then when I did commit, I was only required to pay $1,700 a month for my loan, but I ended up paying $4,400 a month on average, per month. Yeah. I actually ended up paying $157,000 off in 29 months.

Sarah: But you have a really good tech job. And do you live like you don’t?

Nikki: I live, like I don’t. Yeah. I live in like a very tiny, tiny place. I’d never had a car. I spent very little money on anything. I don’t buy clothes. I don’t – I don’t wear makeup at all. I-

Sarah: -you’re gorgeous. You don’t need to.

Nikki: Thank you! I thought that I was going to feel really, I did, I felt good for a week after I paid off my loan. I was like, yeah! I did it! And then immediately put myself into a situation where I kind of spent more money than I should’ve, because I was probably over-excited. But I’m coming back –

Sarah: It will be much more manageable than your loan situation. It’s probably bad for a little bit, but I think you’re okay.

I do have to say, I paid off around the time that I talked to you- I had credit card debt from undergrad and my early twenties and was paying that off forever.

And then finally, because I got this good job, just paid it off and was a hermit. And did my normal thing, but had this fancy job.

When it finally hits zero, I was like, what do I do with my life? Because I’ve been focusing on paying off my debt. I mean, had I stayed there longer, I probably would have tackled my private loans more, but still, it was definitely a weird feeling. You kind of feel this void of purpose or something.

You really have to which gears from paying off old debts to contributing to a future that you want. But it’s a different mindset and there’s something really safe about just knowing, this is what I’m going to do. And I don’t have a lot of control because they will seize all my property if I don’t pay it. Or, you know.

When you’re actually saving and getting to choose your life, that’s a lot of pressure. Cause what if you choose the wrong thing, you know,

Nikki: What have been some impacts on your life because of your student debt?

Sarah: When I first graduated from SFAI, which is where I got most of my debt, that’s- both the majority of my federal loans and my private debt- that is all from San Francisco art Institute which is basically not even a school anymore. But right after I graduate or graduating from there, I went to New York. The income-based repayment system was not quite where it is today. Today you could. Kind of not pay anything up to a certain level or it would be really low.

And I was paying over $600 a month, I guess that was partly because of the private loans. But that plus New York plus I was working a job that they were underpaying me. I was just so stressed. I couldn’t afford my life. So that was kind of the first sign. I might’ve screwed myself over here. I thought if I had a good job, I could afford whatever loans threw at me. And then I realized I have friends who don’t have loans and are having great vacations and investing in their futures. And it became clear really quickly that I was behind the eight ball. And if I thought about what I could be doing with all that money, it started to really bring me down. And so I definitely went through a phase of, wow, I’ve really fucked up my life.

And then I went back to grad school and I, by then I had been sitting with this debt mountain. I feel like I just kind of came to a place where I realized right now that is just my existence. And I have to just embrace the fact that I have all this debt. My credit score is low. My lifestyle is what it is and really sit with it. And work within that construct instead of trying to either beat myself up for having all this debt, or you know, feeling bad or whatever. And just try to have the most fun that I could within that context. Which not to say I wasn’t paying my loans, but it just, for a long time, I really felt guilty. I realized it was very predatory of, you know, the school to ask students to pay as much as they did, you know, and to go into private loan debt.

I mean, I just think back to the Admissions officer who was helping me and my parents and he looked into my soul and was like, ‘You should not do this. ‘

He didn’t say that, but he was like, ‘You are going to have to repay these private loans. for-ever. You cannot miss a payment.

I felt he was like, don’t do it in the way that he could as the Admissions officer. And I was like, no, I’m going to do this. I am going to have a job afterward that’ll pay for it. No biggie.

But I am kind of at the place where we need to overthrow the system.

And I don’t blame myself as much as I used to. I’m more like let’s burn it all down.

Nikki: for everybody that I’ve interviewed, you have the most psychologically stable relationships with your loans. And that’s what I find so intriguing and interesting- is that it did bring you down, which is totally normal debt does that to a person, but then you kind of embraced it and was like, what life do I actually want to lead? I’m not gonna let this drive my decision making in a way that’s going to make my life less than I want it to be.

Sarah: Yeah well and to look back to what we were just talking about- you just have these payments every month. And if I don’t think too far into the future about what a rip off it is that I’m paying whatever interest per day and that when I can pay more, I will, but it kind of, I stayed focused on what do I owe karmically? How do I uphold my end of the deal around what I agreed to pay?

But beyond that, not doing more than my half just because it does suck. If I’m in debt for the rest of my life with these loans, and I may feel different when I’m in my eighties or whatever, but I just think then I’m going to pay those payments. And it won’t, I don’t know- I just can’t think about the horror of the interest because I’m not in a position where I can do anything about it right now. You know?

Nikki: I find the life that you have lived to be very inspiring, which leads really well into the next question is: I want to know more about you.

Let’s start really early on. What did you want to do? How were you in school? What were your dreams, all the way up til now? I want to know you. I want to know you!

Sarah: Wow, okay! Yeah. I think early on, I was really interested in being a lawyer after reading John Grisham’s The Firm then I found- and I think I probably could have gone to law school cause I’m good at grunt work and paperwork, but in the end, I was totally way more inspired by my art. And I got a French degree before I went into art school. But even while I was doing that, I just couldn’t find the energy to get my papers done.

But then if I had a drawing assignment, I would stay up till 4:00 AM, and be really excited about it. And I thought, If I can’t stay awake for my future career, then probably that’s not a good sign. And so I started shifting gears into art. And then I was going to school in Madison, Wisconsin- go Badgers. and then graduated from there because I knew I didn’t want to really stay in Madison too much longer, and applied to SFAI and ended up going there for two years. Two and a half years. And accrued that much debt in that much time, not even full-time the entire time. That was kind of the beginning of what I decided would be my art career.

I just thought, oh, I’m here now. This is what I want to be doing. I will take myself seriously going forward. Even if there’s no external sign that I’m doing a good job- which there wasn’t for a long time- I’m just going to take myself seriously. And then hopefully it’ll follow after that.

Right after graduating from SFAI I went to New York because that’s what you do. And was there for a couple years. And then the big recession hit. End of 2008, and I had my office job. And they, let me go. And then, for the good part of 2009, I guess I was unemployed, just floating around Astoria Queens and applying for grad school and just feeling terrible about myself.

And I think partly it was just time to leave New York, you know? But you couldn’t get a job at Starbucks at that time. It was just so competitive. If you didn’t have a job, you weren’t going to get one.

Middle of that year, I went to San Francisco where, for some reason, it wasn’t quite as bad. Well, partly I was in school too, so you don’t notice as much…

Nikki: So you were in New York, we missed a little bit of it. So you were in New York and then you got into grad school.
Where did you end up going to grad school? And how was moving between the two?

Sarah: Yeah, I went to California College of the arts. I applied and interviewed with a couple of schools on the East coast. Or sorry, one on the East Coast and one in Chicago. I think it was good that I ended up where I did, I was a little heartbroken.

I wanted to go to RISD, but I think it was good because wherever I wanted to land, I wanted it to be a community where I could be and support people and develop a network that I could engage with long term instead of it being a college town that you leave for somewhere else.

I ended up going to California College of the Arts, many thanks to Linda Geary who was the person I interviewed and who became my main mentor for the first year. She really took me under her wing. I was like, I’m going to drop out, what am I doing here? You know? And she’s like, okay, thanks.

So, then grad school, it was a lot but I graduated and did pretty well at the beginning of the 2000 tens, and had three cafe jobs because I thought it would be easier to manage those and my studio, which was pretty busy at the time. And then I started to burn out and wasn’t making enough money to support any of it- from my art or my coffee shop jobs.
So then I ended up getting the office jobs and that was a really hard time because I felt like I had failed. Everything. My art career went in the toilet for a little period there and then, I wasn’t interested in making work. And I had started working in an accounting firm, you know?

And I’m like, Oh, this is my life. How boring! But it made me realize there’s so much else to life. And so I think that was my chance to quiet myself and develop more of an internal vision instead of chasing after what I thought I was supposed to be doing.

Even as an artist, there’s all these things that you’re supposed to be doing. You’re supposed to get the gallery. You’re supposed to go on this trajectory of superstardom and I felt like I knew how to do it, but then when it started manifesting, I just felt like I don’t really like the people I’m being surrounded with. And it wasn’t fun or rewarding in the way I thought it was going to be.

So I think all my office job time was a good way to build a different skill set and be around people who do not care about your art career, you know?

It also made me realize the art world is not going to take care of your financial world. A gallery might want something from you, but they don’t care how you have to get it.

And so if you’re not taking care of yourself, no one’s going to tell you, Oh, you should really take care of yourself. They’re just going to be like, we want, you know, these things, these deliverables. And so it felt good to be like, yeah, I’m going to invest in my financial health. And even if it’s deeply uncool.

But I have to say, it’s very cool to take care of your financial health! But at the time it felt like, Oh man, I’m so uncool. I’ve got this job, you know, ugh the man!

Nikki: So you got to grad school, then you started taking all these office jobs. What happened between an office job and now?

Sarah: I took my last, well, maybe not ever, but I had gotten laid off from a job and it was 2017. It was a cool company to work for, but it just wasn’t a good fit with my life plan. I just felt like, ugh, I’m really over office jobs.

I want something more exciting. But then I got this really amazing opportunity with this makeup company and I would be an Executive Assistant. And it just sounded really fabulous. And also, they were doing some cool things with products around that time. So I just felt like this is a good place to be for a while. I do need the money.

So I started working there and it just was so stressful. It was totally Devil Wears Prada plus Mean Girls. And I’m like, you know if I really I felt like this was where I was supposed to be I would deal with it, but I was around all these creative people, but my job wasn’t very creative.

And so it kind of reinforced this is not who I am and I’m doing it for money, but life is short.

So I paid off my credit card debt. I refinanced my student loans and I had this vacation scheduled and I was like, okay, cool. What am I going to be doing? Maybe I’ll get an apartment that’s my own place or whatever.

But I was going to go on this vacation. So it was just trying to make it till then just to chill out. And then just all this stuff happened and I’m not going to go into it, but basically, I ended up quitting.

And then I left for my vacation and I was like, Oh my God, I don’t have a job anymore. And I have no credit card debt. My life is awesome. I’m going to come back. I’m going to figure out what’s next and it’s going to be great. And then three days into my trip, I got an email from my roommate. It’s like, “I’m moving out. You guys all have to go. You have a month.” And I was like, I don’t have a house! Oh my God!

I was in Berlin trying to have fun. And then things changed. And I got back to the place of, Oh, I need to take care of myself and get a new job and get an apartment. And so I just started freaking out.

But anyway, long story short, I actually ended up deciding I don’t need to stay in San Francisco. That’s part of the problem is San Francisco is so expensive and is still, but so maybe if I leave for a while, it’ll give me a chance to figure things out. But without the hefty price tag of a new apartment.

Three months later, I went to Mexico City and found a really cheap place and just tooled around. Then while I was there, I got a remote job as a marketing assistant that I’m still working for. And it just made me realize I can work and travel. One of my rules, before I took that job, was I’m never going to do anything just for the money again. Because it became clear, I could be in Mexico or somewhere that’s more affordable and not have to punish myself because of my loans or because I’m not achieving what I thought I would or whatever.

So I’m like, I’m just going to make sure whatever job I take on, I feel somewhat invested in because otherwise, I’ll just continue to repeat this pattern. I magically ended up with a couple of remote jobs, and between that freelance writing.

I was traveling all the way up until June of this year where I was in Mexico again, doing an artist residency. You know, I was in the small town of Tepoztlan when the coronavirus hit, I got all the texts from San Francisco, like coronavirus, don’t leave your house! That put an end to my travels, but I had been traveling around Europe and attending artists’ residencies and flying by the night.

Nikki: I’ve just been following you. And it’s just, I don’t know. I’m very inspired by what you have been doing. Just finding artists, residencies, going and living, making the work that you want to make, and surviving. My partner, actually, was like, look, Sarah’s doing it. She has more loans than you. What is holding you back is you, it’s not your situation.

He just basically was like, if Sarah’s lifestyle is so inspiring to you, it’s not that it’s not achievable. She is doing it. So it was more like look at Sarah as Someone that has the things that you want and is achieving and has debt. So he basically was like, don’t crutch yourself and blame your student loans for you not living the life that you want to live.

And he is completely right. That is correct. my whole life I’ve been like, oh, I can’t do that because of this. Oh, I can’t do that. But you figured out how to get out of that cycle of like…

Sarah: Well, so I have to say, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it to someone who doesn’t feel like they could enjoy themselves if they weren’t being really careful about their loans or whatever.

So I think you’re doing something amazing and I’m so excited to see what, post-loan you look like because your role is different. you’re educating people on your process. And now you’re talking with all these other people. I mean, that’s amazing. So I think there are times for everything.

And I’m transitioning away from what I was doing and now, you know, the hard truth of I’ve re-accrued some credit card debt and whatever.

It’s the idea of seasons, you know, and I sewed some oats that were long overdue and I didn’t let my circumstances get in the way, but at the same time now I’m going to go deal with them and now you’re going to go be free.

And I am passing the torch. Please be free, for me.

Nikki: I do think that that is. A good point that we see other people doing things that we want to do, and we don’t necessarily know the circumstances or if it will work with our thing. You should really trust the universe and go with the flow.

Instead of just like, for me, I’m someone who tries to imagine the future and I get a lot of my happiness from imagining what a different future might look like opposed to living currently right now. What can make me happy? And that’s what I’ve been working on. Since I paid off the debt, I’m like, what will actually make me happy?

And I don’t know yet, but it’s a journey.

Sarah: You know, it’s interesting because when I first went on that vacation after quitting my job, I actually before everything exploded was sitting there with no debt, savings, and Europe, and I’m like, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do.

You know? I was like, I don’t know what will make me happy right now. I guess I’ll go to some museums.

But it was very intimidating to have all this freeness around. And that’s back to the point of when you do have the void of the debt that is no longer needing to be paid. You have to decide what you want and that’s scary.

Nikki: So scary. So is there anything I didn’t talk about that you specifically want to touch upon around student loans or life or anything?

Sarah: Yeah, I guess just don’t bury your head in the sand about them. It can feel so overwhelming. And I think that’s partly why I just ignored my payments for however many months. But the bottom line is they’re not going to go away, you know? And so as much as I know, and saying pay the minimum payment and live your life, I also think you have to know that they are there because they will really fuck up your life.

I remember having to call FedLoans about something to do with payments. And I had to negotiate my forbearance and I was screaming at them on the phone because they would deliberately not respond or delay whatever application. And- ’cause I think I was renewing my IBR payment forms.

It’s all really chaotic. And I think it’s designed in some ways to be that way. But also they’re overworked and understaffed.

I just think nothing is gained by putting off, dealing with them. It wasn’t as articulate as I was hoping, but I was just thinking about those six-months – don’t ignore them. Cause you’ll end up with 48 marks on your credit.

Nikki: Knowing what you know now, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Sarah: I don’t know. I just would say don’t take out private loans if you can avoid it. Honestly. That’s been the hardest thing because you do have to pay them every month, like a credit card, and they’re kind of the highest risk. In terms of the damage, they can cause to your daily life.

Yeah. I don’t know. I wouldn’t say, don’t go to SFAI, but I would say, it will be there. Maybe don’t be in such a hurry and whatever choices I was going to make, maybe wait for the timing to be right. You will get supported. People get grants to go to undergrad. Or build up your portfolio or maybe move to San Francisco and work, or I dunno.

I felt like I was in such a hurry to get to a certain place that I was willing to put my financial life in jeopardy and it wasn’t necessary. And it didn’t get me anywhere faster. You know, if anything, it took me back many years having to figure out how to juggle this new financial lifestyle.

Nikki: We are all just rushing. But sometimes, if you take a moment and you ask yourself, why am I rushing? Is it because society telling me I need to rush? Is it internal monologues telling me to rush?

Just take a moment and just be like, why am I trying to make this decision? Is it cause I feel empty in life? Is it cause I feel like I need some fulfillment? Like what are the opportunities there when you understand what your desired outcome is, which is- your desired outcome almost to be an artist. It was to go to SFAI, but there’s always opportunities in between the problem and the solution that I feel like a lot of the times we just jumped to the solution.

I think it’s because I’ve been working in tech too long that I think that way now, cause a lot of people like to jump problem to solution. And I have discovered this gray medium, right in between the two that is all the opportunities to get to the desired outcome or a solution that you want.

Sarah: Yeah. because also what the problem is, maybe isn’t clear until you evaluate that gray zone. What was the problem? Was the problem I didn’t know how to make art? Not necessarily. What was the actual issue that SFA was trying to solve and shifting that question or that problem would have really helped me figure out the next steps that didn’t necessarily mean me jumping to school?

Nikki: I’m curious, you should investigate this. I do know that when the art institutes closed down, a lot of folks that I know that went there were actually able to have their loans forgiven because it was no longer an accredited school.

I’m curious. In the coming time, if SFAI becomes a non-accredited school, if something like that, I will have to stay in touch, to see how that rolls out. But my last question is, what advice would you just give to other people about debt?

Sarah: I dunno, I’m not like, don’t ever have debt. Cause sometimes you do need to take a risk and invest in something that maybe wouldn’t be possible otherwise.

But, I would say, don’t treat it like a rush. I was so impulsive when I was younger. I was just like, Oh, it’s a rush. I’m going to go to school and then it’s going to be like a new life. And then. I’m gonna do this thing and it’s going to be crazy, like move to New York. Why not?

You’re uneducated when you’re making those kinds of decisions. I feel like it’s better to take a step back and reevaluate the risks. And then if you still choose to do it, you’re doing it from a place of consciousness. Somehow I still have debt, even though I’m doing that. So I don’t know. Life is expensive.

Nikki: Life in the US was really expensive.

Sarah: It really is. Oh my gosh. I mean, we’re not, not even talking about health insurance, which is just like…
I know the systems really don’t work for us as citizens.

Yeah. I mean, I guess that would be my other side is, it’s not necessarily just you. It is a fucked up system, so don’t feel bad if you’ve gotten yourself at a young age into it. Because it’s not set up for you to succeed.

Nikki: This system is definitely set up for you to fail.

Sarah: One other thing I would say is if you can promote loan companies, I would say fed loans absolute no. They’re a total nightmare to work with. But Great Lakes has been amazing.

Nikki: Did you transitioned from FedLoan to Great Lakes?

Sarah: I did something where I could choose to transition, but I would have to completely refinance my FedLoans in order to switch away from them. And that right now wouldn’t get me a better interest rate, but, yeah, I did something where I was able to switch part of my loans over to Great Lakes. And they have been like on top of it. Anytime I make a change, they process it within a month. So highly recommend. Is there

Nikki: anything that you want to promote?

Sarah: Um sure. So by the time my episode airs, I will have probably finished my solo exhibition of paintings, at a gallery in Madrid called Fahrenheit Madrid. And I will have hosted a couple events for the show, which should be up on my Instagram, which is @Sarah_ Thibault.

Nikki: I’m going to spell your name in the thing.

Sarah: Yeah. Okay, cool. And yeah, it will be a literary event with writers from probably Madrid and wherever else, the group curates the writers from- and also an artist talk. So you can check that out.

Nikki: So exciting. Thank you so much for being here.

Sarah: Thank you so much much for having me. This was a delight and I’m so proud of you for honestly talking about being inspired. You had a vision and you carried it out. And that is not a small thing. That is something you can take with you in your life. It’s really inspiring.

Nikki: Oh, thank you so much.

Sarah: Yeah. And now you’re paying it forward, which is even more beautiful. Doing this podcast, I think it’s really great.

Nikki:  Matter of Life and Debt is produced by me Nikki Nolan.  

Special thanks to Efe Akmen for creating the music and mastering the audio. 

Additional support and thanks to Sarah Thibault  who writes the information and transcripts about each episode. 

This podcast would not have been possible without them. 

Visit our website for more information matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen, read transcripts, get additional context of the subjects you just heard about, and subscribe- absolutely for free. That website again, matteroflifeanddebt.com. Thanks again for listening.

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