After attending art school to pursue her dreams of working in theater, Emma Klauber found herself for years making decisions to repair the financial damage of her student loans. Finally she found herself in her dream job at a historical music venue in New York City. Disheartened by the stodgy company culture there and her inability to make a dent in her $200k of student debt with the low wages, she left to pursue a more lucrative career in Education, Diversity and Inclusion for a FinTech company.

More recently, Klauber connected with her now co-editor Miranda Dennis, who was sharing her student loan issues without shame on her Tumblr page. It was after reading what Dennis had written that Klauber decided she wanted to share her story, and create an avenue for others to share theirs. The two connected and started the Medium publication called shame[less]: Student Loan Sagas. Click the link to learn more about Emma Klauber’s story.

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Transcript

Nikki Nolan: I’m Nikki Nolan. And this is Matter of Life and Debt, a show about people in the United States, in their student debt. In today’s episode, Shame{Less} Student Debt, I talk with Emma Klauber, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion professional, and an advocate for the student loan cancellation. She has pivoted her career in order to pay back her student loans.

Recently, a friend and her started a Medium publication called Shameless, where they write about their experiences with student debt.

This is her story.

Welcome to the podcast. It’s so good to have you here. Let’s just get into this. How much student debt do you have?

Emma Klauber: I have around $200,000 in student debt.

Nikki Nolan: Oh my God. Is that public, private… what does your debt look like?

Emma Klauber: It’s a mix of both. I was able to refinance about 140,000 of it. So that’s all private obviously. And the rest is it’s federal.

Nikki Nolan: Was it all federal first, then you decided to privatize it?

Emma Klauber: No, it was always a mix. But the interest rates were just astronomical. So I was able to refinance it, get a lower interest rate on at least on that portion of the loans.

Nikki Nolan: What impact has student debt had on your life?

Emma Klauber: It has impacted so many parts of my life. I think probably the biggest one is career. And also, at this point, it kind of veered into personal life for many reasons as well. So, I moved to Delaware about two and a half years ago. I think 95% because of my student debt moved from New York City, where I had lived during college, since college.

And I needed to make a huge career pivot in order to set myself on a track to what I hope eventually will be financial security. And I had to completely change industries. I moved from Arts Education to FinTech and the opportunity that was available to me. And I still think was absolutely the right choice in a career move was in Delaware.

So, it was kind of trading, everything I loved about New York and my friends and being around the arts and being in a city and everything that has to offer, with an opportunity for financial security. It just felt like a choice I had to make.

Nikki Nolan: Over the last two years, do you feel like you actually are moving towards that goal?

Emma Klauber: Yes, and no, I’m definitely in a better spot. But I think this is a recurring theme for lots of friends I’ve talked to about their student loans during the pandemic and that unfortunately a global crisis was an opportunity for many of us to get just a little bit ahead financially because our student loan payments are paused or the interest in particular is paused.

One of the first times I’ve ever had some money leftover in my checking account at the end of the month. That combined with not having to pay rent for about five months now. I’ve been with my parents for most of the pandemic and I eventually gave up my apartment cause I wasn’t there. I was at their house. And so the combination of those two factors have allowed me for the very first time to ever have any kind of excess money. I think I was more just breaking even rather than being behind like I was sort of in my previous salary.

So I still have a long, long way to go. And that’s something that I think about every single day. How much money I make. How much money I feel like I need to be making just to get ahead a little bit more. And I’m very focused on networking, job searching, looking at other opportunities that I hope are aligned with my career aspirations, but also very frankly, pay me a lot more money.

Nikki Nolan: I would love you to talk a little bit more about what happened in December.

Emma Klauber: Yeah. So- well, Nikki, you and I met on LinkedIn . And like many Millennials I am very good at making friends online. And, I have a friend on Tumblr, Miranda. And she’s been posting for quite a while about her student loans. And I always really admired that because, for me, talking about my student loans was something I only did in very private situations with a friend who I knew also had student loans. And I was one of those weird things where you don’t outwardly ask someone. You sort of wait for them to give you a hint that they even have them so that it feels safe to open up that conversation and sort of compare experiences and compare notes.

So that’s the only way I’d ever really previously talked about it. And to be really honest, it’s a subject that I hate thinking about. I hate talking about . And it’s to the point where I think that also really negatively impacted me and perhaps impacts a lot of other people where it feels so big, so overwhelming, so shameful that you can’t even educate yourself on the topic to, to even attempt to make progress with them because, what’s the point? I think you and I, Nikki, have talked about if the only real solution is to make more money, that’s not an actual solution.

So I don’t know. How do you empower yourself to really dig into this situation if making more money is not an option for you? So Miranda was posting about student loans and she posted that she recently spoke to a financial advisor who she felt, for the first time ever, gave her some straight talk about student loans. Which was the solution is to make more money. And she was just so happy that someone said that to her face. Obviously, no one’s happy that that’s what the key is. But I don’t think it’s not something you can budget yourself out of, which is sort of the usual, well, just stop buying your coffees every day kind of advice you see from financial advisors. And she’s like, if anyone wants to chat about this more, I’d be happy to share this knowledge. So I messaged her and we set up time to talk. And it was just one of those conversations where you walk away feeling so relieved, so validated, just so heard.

And it’s probably the first time I ever even shared a number of the student loans with someone. Because we kind of laid it out on the table and had a conversation like you and I are having now about how it impacts our lives, how it’s affected our decision-making. What is it like to talk to a partner about your student loans? Or at what point in dating do you bring it up? Just sort of, you can’t really go on a website and get advice about that type of thing. So it was incredibly impactful conversation. And the next day I emailed her and I was like, would you want to write about this with me?

And she said, yes, right away. So we set up what we wanted out of a public platform about student loans and what we really wanted was empathy, compassion and transparency. A lot of our conversation was centered on the subject of shame. The shame that you feel from society, from friends who don’t have an experience with student loans. I could probably name you every instance that I’ve felt shamed by a friend or a colleague who may not even know that they caused those feelings. It’s something that I feel very deeply inside of me and a lot of us are feeling that in isolation. So we named it Shameless to sort of nod to that. And I think really selfishly, we try to release that shame from both of us. It’s awesome that it has seemed to trickle out. And a lot of the feedback we’ve gotten from friends or coworkers has been around ‘I feel exactly the same way. I’ve never been able to publicly articulate that. It’s just refreshing to see it written down.’

So we started a Medium publication, and it’s something that has been really awesome in that it’s made me for the first time ever be able to talk about my student loans in a public forum. I would not be talking to you right now. Certainly if we hadn’t done this. And it’s led to so many- just in the last month- so many validating conversations around this issue. We’d like to start accepting guest submissions into our blog. And we also ask that those who would like to have some kind of face-to-face conversation about, or at least, over zoom for now, share their interest.

So we’re looking at starting with a happy hour. Again, how fun can you make a conversation about student loans? I don’t know. But we can try. Or, just starting some cadence of checking i n . It’s not meant to be therapy, but it’s just like, I acknowledge that you are also having a really hard time with this and it’s valuable just to share that experience with someone in the same situation.

Nikki Nolan: Student loan support group.

Emma Klauber: Yeah. So I really love Comedy Bang, Bang, and I really love sort of all the adjacent comedy podcasts. And comedians who are within that circle. And I’m a big fan of High and Mighty, which is John Gabrus’ podcast. He talks very transparently about so many personal subjects. But he has talked about his student loans over the years of his podcasting. His student loans and his wife’s student loans. And I don’t- he’s never put a number to it. I don’t think he had sort of the enormity that I have, but it’s something that he was paying until very recently . And just him saying that out loud and acknowledging that it’s been part of his life and a difficult part and him being in the arts. And sort of, again, how are his choices impacted by all those variables in his life, has been enormously valuable to me.

I don’t know how he would feel hearing this, but Jon Gabrus you’re doing a good thing talking about all of your sort of personal insecurities and difficulties. It just made me feel better too, to hear him talk about his student loans.

I see everything through a lens of student loans, I think. And if someone I even slightly admire or, like, mentions them, my approval rating of them, goes through the roof. I saw on Instagram the other day that Tim Baltz posted a screenshot of him paying off his student loans. And I remember reading, when Obama was in the White House, he and Michelle didn’t pay off their student loans till they were in the White House.

Nikki Nolan: Yeah. And the only reason he could pay it off was because he got a book deal.

Emma Klauber: That, when I learned that it, I mean, it made me sad. It made me feel so validated at the same time. If I could thank President Obama for one thing, I’d just be saying that out loud.

Nikki Nolan: Yeah, what’s really interesting about this shame that you’re talking about is, is how historical it is. So I’m reading a book right now called Debt: the First 5,000 Years, and this level of shame and it being pushed on the borrower, sometimes it’s pushed on the creditor, is systemic.

It goes back thousands and thousands of years to the invention of debt. And it’s so funny that you don’t realize that there’s a whole system of shaming debtors. A lot of the time, it’s like, Oh my God it’s me . And then when you open up to it, you’re like, Oh no, it’s a system. But I guess what I’m saying is it’s not you. But it’s amazing that you’re sharing it and it does seem it’s given you some relief as well.

Emma Klauber: A Hundred percent. And I think, one thing I still really can’t get past in the conversation about who has student loans versus who doesn’t is people who don’t have student loans, this is a huge generalization, but it’s not that they made some inherently, more educated, better choice. Right? Just had different life circumstances. And I don’t necessarily think someone else in high school thought about that more than me or less, because they knew they weren’t going to be taking out student loans. Like that- I think that’s the thing I just, when someone makes you feel shamed for having student loans. Why didn’t you know what you’re getting into?

But that wasn’t even a thought you needed to consider if you’re someone who doesn’t have them. That I really, I really grapple with. And I definitely, not to get into the whole minimum wage debate, but it’s endlessly confusing and contradictory when someone doesn’t agree with increasing the minimum wage so that you can afford to live without a college degree. Because the solution is to go to college and get a degree. But also we don’t want to help you do so without getting into debt. To me, then, you’re just revealing about yourself that you want the poor to stay poor. You don’t want anyone to be able to change their situation. You just, you don’t want anyone to be empowered to do anything with their life.

Nikki Nolan: You just nailed it.

We all need to step up and see what we can do as individuals. And maybe it is you just sign a petition. Maybe it is that you just start talking about your debt more openly to give people more space. I think if we can all get together and just do tiny actions- we’re not going to solve it. We need Congress, and the United States, and our government to dedicate themselves to saying education is important. We need to make it affordable. And that we are prioritizing an educated populace. And, we can all work as hard as we can, but we need them to do it. The system needs to be fixed by those in power.

Emma Klauber: We do. And that’s where I sort of currently see myself. And I think that’s a way everyone can empower themselves right now, which is you can identify the people around Biden who are influential to his decision making. And , whether I’m writing an email, which I did this week to Jamie Harrison, now that he’s the DNC chair. I attempted to submit an op-ed to a newspaper and Wilmington that Biden supposedly reads every day. Those are just small actions, but what has been so important for me is that this is something that I have true, true, personal experience that I can speak from. And I can empower myself by speaking out about it rather than sitting silently in shame. And I think that’s a tool that everyone in this situation has right now. I do hope that Biden will be empathetic. I think he’s empathetic about so many things. I would hope that could extend to student loans.

I know your previous guests said that Biden actually made it more difficult for debtors to release their student loan debt in bankruptcy. I don’t know where he stands on it. I think it’s a great sign that he decided to pause interest, through September. So he’s taking it seriously, but I think along with The Debt Strike that is happening and if all of us individually can just keep pummeling influencers around Biden, about this topic , that’s what we all individually can contribute to a solution. And beyond that, it can’t just be a one-time forgiveness . It has to be long-term systemic change. So overwhelming, so huge, such a big task.

But even if my, my student loans were to be forgiven, I would want to commit for the rest of my life to helping other people avoid that situation and changing the system. I know that sounds really idealistic, but, I would never want to stop fighting for change, even if I was no longer personally impacted. ,There’s just too much at stake for everyone who is affected by this issue and will be in the future.

Nikki Nolan: That’s a good place to transition into. What is your story? What were your dreams when you were young to the reality we are now?

Emma Klauber: I grew up in Pennsylvania. My dad worked full-time. My mom had sort of a part-time gig, was mostly a stay-at-home mom. And a lot of my immediate family are engineers, or electricians. And I was a kid who was very into the arts, in particular musicals. And I knew I wanted to move to New York City.

I knew I wanted to be around that and be immersed in it. And for the longest time I felt growing up that I wanted to be a teacher. Now, when I really reflect on that now, I understand that it was just because of a lack of awareness of what other careers existed. I had no examples of what other kinds of pathways, or roles were out there like in our family, friends and my immediate family. And teachers were largely the people I was exposed to and saw in leadership positions. That’s where that notion came from. And I just never had a reason to sort of examine it or contradict it. Combination of that, and also, I don’t think my high school did a great job at preparing anyone for post-high school.

I’m sure this is a completely common theme. We had something called Career Academies that was piloted with my class. And starting in ninth grade, you had to pick a very broad subject area, like STEM or. Liberal Arts. And they didn’t let you change your mind at any point over the course of the four years, which is really bizarre.

And by the senior, by your senior year, you did the senior project that was examining a career you thought you wanted to have. And I remember even I was looking at teaching and I didn’t even feel like I had any support at my high school for a career that’s essentially all my influencers were in. There really wasn’t any cutting edge knowledge, or guidance, or helping me understand what a life in teaching looks like. I just don’t think I had any idea whatsoever. And I don’t think any of my classmates did either for whatever their particular interest was.

The two elements I knew were New York City and teaching. So I only applied to schools in New York. And I was accepted to NYU. And I remember myself, and a classmate at that time, were the first people ever from our school district to choose to go to NYU or be accepted to NYU. So it was a big deal.

And I don’t think I was aware of cost. Really thinking about cost. I knew that my parents were not going to be able to pay for it. I knew that I was going to be taking out student loans. But it’s still, I don’t think it felt real to me. And it’s not like anyone sat me down and, and really taught me about what it would mean to take out loans. And I don’t think my parents were gonna tell me that I couldn’t go where I wanted to go. At the same time, it was where I wanted to go. And I had the opportunity to do it. It was the right school for me. I had a great experience. I, I really, we can get into this later, but I, I wouldn’t, I probably wouldn’t make a different choice because you’ve still only know what you know.

And it’s almost, it’s not worth sort of torturing myself. Cause I, I just didn’t have any other information at that time. And I did student teaching . I had a really great cohort of classmates, who, many are teachers in New York city now. But it sort of just had a feeling that I didn’t want to ever be in a classroom every single day. I needed more variety to my work experience. And because I was in New York, I was going to the theater all the time and sort of falling even more enamored with the arts and everything they have to offer you in New York City. So I. Also wanted to bring that into my professional world. It’s something I feel very passionately about now.

I think you stated so eloquently Nikki, why the arts were so important to you. And for me growing up, musicals were my window into other cultures, other perspectives, other worlds that I absolutely did not have around me in Pennsylvania. And it was all that, and even better when I was actually in New York.

So I wanted to somehow combine my interest in education and theater. But again, I knew I didn’t want to be a classroom teacher, so theater education didn’t make sense. But I sort of came across something called Applied Theater, which is the application of theater to community settings to interrogate a problem, sort of illuminate the situation. Help you look at something with community members from a safe creative lens. So that could mean theater education in a school. It can mean theater in a park. It can mean theater in a senior center- really all kinds of settings.

I decided to go to graduate school immediately following. And I was thinking about money a little bit then because I chose a one-year graduate program versus a two-year. And I had studied abroad in London while I was at NYU and wanted to go back. So my one-year program was in London. And again, that was an amazing experience that I just can’t imagine who I would be today without it . I don’t think it’s worth dwelling on forever and ever. It happened. And I had a cohort of really international colleagues. I had the opportunity to travel. And go run some drama projects with my colleagues in their home countries. So that was amazing.

I think it helped me really grow as a person at the same time. I came back from New York because many people, when they do attend my grad school, which is the Central School of Speech and Drama, they try to stay in London, but it’s extremely difficult to get a visa.

Nikki Nolan: What was life like when you came back to the U.S. and had to transition into that career?

Emma Klauber: So, as I mentioned, for me to choose New York City, and for me to choose teaching, for me to choose the arts, was like very much out of my family’s experience and knowledge base. And there was no one who I could immediately turn to, to be like, how do I get a job in theater in New York? Like, I truly was starting from scratch despite having just gone to grad school for it. You know, a lot of those relationships are based in the U.K. So, you know, again, when you’re thinking about what graduate school to choose, probably not the best foresight, you know, for myself. But I knew New York City at that point, ’cause I had already lived there. So at least that part was not intimidating to me.

So I had to start with an internship at a commercial theater company, and it barely paid. I think it was like a hundred dollars a week. And I was using sort of some leftover student loans to live for a little bit. And I was there for about a year. I eventually got bumped up to some kind of bullshit associate level that paid a little bit more, like basically covered rent for the month. And meanwhile was looking for a full-time job in arts education ’cause that’s really what I wanted to do. And New York City is obviously an amazing place for that.

The UK has arts education better integrated and valued within their education system, which is why it was an awesome place to learn about it. But it’s also like a huge part of New York City’s, even the department of education’s priorities. It always can be prioritized more, but it’s absolutely there in many schools. So there’s lots of non-profit arts organizations in all the boroughs that do a lot of in-school programming, and that’s what I wanted to work on. So I started at a drama therapy nonprofit. I was there for a couple years. I think working in the arts in New York, if you don’t have a safety net, it is extremely difficult.

This is, I’m not saying anything revolutionary here. I think anyone who works in media or the arts knows how lowly paid they are, how exploited you are, how you really have no social capital to advocate for yourself or others often. If you see someone being mistreated or you’re being mistreated yourself, particularly within the arts, there’s a lot of leadership that’s been in place for 30 plus years.

There’s not a lot of turnover, so it’s also not a lot of open roles. So you’re often sort of competing with other people who have exactly the same amount of education as you, for like a $40,000 job. But it feels so important and crucial when you’re in that. And also because leadership is not turning over, there’s not a lot of new perspectives, representation, within particularly- I know this is true of all the arts- but particularly nonprofit arts. So you kind of hit a wall where you don’t feel like you’re doing the work that you want to do or reaching the people that you want to reach because you don’t ultimately have support from leadership.

And it feels way too big to, to tackle alone. And even though I, you know, developed colleagues who had the same values and thoughts as me, again, we were often like drowning in student loans and there is no way anyone was going to push back at all because there was just no space to like miss a paycheck, potentially lose your job and miss a paycheck.

So similar to you also, Nikki, I then had another role as a Director of Education and Community Outreach at a theater in Times Square. That was my dream job. And I was doing it. But I could not execute even like a base level of what I wanted to do in the confines of the leadership at this organization.

It’s a theater that was actually founded by suffragists. So it’s started as a place specifically for diverse voices to be heard. And so many important social justice moments have actually happened there. So for example, Margaret Sanger was arrested on stage. She held her first national birth control convention at this theater. Marian Anderson who was a Black opera singer. She was not welcomed on any other stage in New York City, and this theater hosted her.
Simone has performed there. Bob Dylan made his professional debut. Like so many important cultural figures have come through. So it was really frustrating to feel like I was being radical for wanting to talk about social justice in my arts programming in schools and not having the support to do so.

Nikki Nolan: That is so wild. But, this leads to a lot of things. It’s like, the system is fundamentally not working in lots and lots of different places. And right now, at this point in our history, it’s an opportune moment to go in and dismantle a lot of these systems that have just been in place to make sure that more voices are being heard, more diverse perspectives from every range. Not, I’m not saying just a specific range, every range. We need to figure out how to make systems that allow people to thrive and not get stuck in some of these systems that perpetuate this really tight, static thinking.

Emma Klauber: Absolutely. Absolutely. This is absolutely true of every industry. I don’t have personal expansion of industry. But in the arts, the lack of diversity from the top to the bottom, from the bottom to the top is absolutely a toxic perpetuating system where it feels absolutely impenetrable as a single person within that hierarchy. If your leadership is not diverse and not able to look through anyone else’s perspective or just be open to any differing viewpoints. I mean, I think there’s been like two or three different articles in the times over the last couple of months about how arts institutions are sort of scrambling to hire more diverse leadership because it absolutely isn’t there.

Again, in this role that I thought was my sort of long-term career goal, and was becoming increasingly frustrated at all of these systemic problems within the arts that I just could not as one person, or one person particularly with student loan debt, take on. I have a good friend who had basically an equivalent job to me at a different theater company. And these were things we talked about constantly. But she is someone who, I hope she doesn’t mind me talking about her, but she is someone who also has a lot of student loans and, in the same way, that you just don’t feel you can stand up for yourself or others when you see the system of abuse being perpetuated.

I decided I wanted to make a pivot. I wanted to make a pivot in the hopes that working somewhere bigger, perhaps there’d be more like-minded colleagues that could immediately support me and work on initiatives that I believe to be important. And also, I wanted to make more money just very, very, very simply.

So I probably spent a good two years figuring out what my next move was. And I knew that I was interested in philanthropy. I knew that it was interested in philanthropy and felt like it was adjacent enough to where I currently was that I would be qualified.

So I started talking to friends of friends, people’s colleagues, et cetera. Really anyone who was open to talking to me about their jobs in, sort of, in those worlds – the corporate social responsibility, education technology. Those types of jobs, and just getting a sense of is this for me?

I applied to a whole bunch of roles. It came down to two and I think the one that I landed is the one that absolutely made sense for me at that time and was a really nice transition. Essentially it exchanged the use of the arts to facilitate change among communities with technology. It Is a really sort of nice changeover that occurred.

So I work in FinTech now and I work on a team that exposes youth in the K-to-12 space to career pathways in technology.

Nikki Nolan: Oh, wow. Great. I think that that makes a lot of sense listening to your story and going back to the fact that you weren’t exposed to those things. I can see why this role is a really good fit in terms of your history in trying to help people that might be in a similar position to you where there’s this lack of exposure to the potential.

Emma Klauber: I feel really passionately about my current job. But I think that’s one of the things I have to think about all the time is that despite how much I like my job, I know you mentioned this Nikki, like, it’s not paying me enough. I said, I’m breaking even rather than, sort of, being behind. But unfortunately it doesn’t pay enough. I think in my next job besides money, I would like to keep working in this space. I’d like to still be in technology and helping to create new kinds of pathways for people to enter the technology field that don’t just require like this four- year university pedigree.

I’m really proud. Right now I’m on a team that is actively working on that. How can people from diverse educational backgrounds find a role that matches their skillset? Or even more importantly, how once they’re inside the company, how can we continue to upskill them and help them grow their experience and knowledge so they can move into other, hopefully, leadership roles within the company? That is work I absolutely would like to continue doing.

Nikki Nolan: Is there anything else that I didn’t ask you about?

Emma Klauber: I think the only other thing I would want to say is, also as a result of the last month, I had the opportunity to talk to a woman who runs a nonprofit called The Prosperity Project. They do. Prosperity Project is a nonprofit that’s dedicated to uplifting and advancing Black girls and women with the resources to help them thrive in all areas of life.

Black women are saddled with over $35 billion in collective student debt. So she has created a program where she does retroactive student scholarships. So women share their loan stories with her. And she has like a group of grantees.

So while she’s raising money to completely pay off their loans, she also has a really comprehensive, like, financial education built into that. And that is something as someone who works in FinTech is like, financial education is something I haven’t even really tapped into. And something I could definitely see myself- if again, by some Biden miracle, would have my loans forgiven- I think financial education would be a huge, huge priority. Like lifelong passion to just help more people feel individually empowered. And I have so much financial education to learn myself because like I told you, it’s like, I didn’t have money to really worry about what, like what to do beyond paying bills. So that’s something I will definitely be exploring as long as interest is paused.

Nikki Nolan: If you could give your younger self some advice, what would you tell yourself?

Emma Klauber: I really think the biggest thing I would tell myself is to diversify my interests and skills earlier. Again, I don’t think I can say that I would make different choices and I don’t know that I want to make different choices to a certain degree. I really love the experiences that I have . But I think I could have earlier talked to people in more diverse jobs and fields and just explored what else is out there other than education or the arts. But again, I think that requires me to somehow know more than what I knew, which is never going to be possible.
Yeah.

Nikki Nolan: Well, we’re coming to the end. Is there anything you would like to plug?

Emma Klauber: Yeah, I would love for listeners to jump over to Medium, and find our publication. It’s called Shameless: Student Loan Sagas. It’s by myself, Emma Klauber and Miranda Dennis.

I think definitely check out The Prosp(a)rity Project, the awesome nonprofit that we mentioned earlier.

Nikki Nolan: She’ll be on the episode right after you. So, so exciting. What, what else?

Emma Klauber: Happy for anyone to connect with me on LinkedIn. As I mentioned earlier, I am completely sincere about always wanting to have career conversations with anyone interested in changing industries trying to figure out what their next move should be, talking about salary negotiation, figuring out what aspects or what parts of a job you value most and how to go after those? I’m always excited. So if you are a stranger and message me on LinkedIn, I will reply.

Nikki Nolan: Well, thank you so much for being here

Emma Klauber: Thanks so much, Nikki.

Nikki Nolan: Matter of Life and Debt is produced by me Nikki Nolan.

Special thanks to Efe Akmen for creating the music and mastering the audio.

Additional support and thanks to Sarah Thibault  who writes the information and transcripts about each episode.

This podcast would not have been possible without them.

Visit our website for more information matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen, read transcripts, get additional context of the subjects you just heard about, and subscribe- absolutely for free. That website again, matteroflifeanddebt.com. Thanks again for listening.

 

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