In this episode, we discuss the current news surrounding student debt. In our new spotlight section, we explore theater activism in-depth with Talia Molé, Dr. Shamell Bell, Alÿcia Bacon, and Todd Squitieri. They delve into the planning and execution of a March 1st day of action that is both in person and virtual. And that’s not all: we’ll also take a closer look at the various events taking place throughout the end of February and March and share what’s bringing us joy in these challenging times.

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Transcript 

(Music)

[00:00:05] Shanna Bennett: Hi, I’m Shannon Bennett and you’re listening to Matter of Life and Debt. We are deep into experimentation on this episode, so you’ll definitely have to let us know what you think. There are going to be four segments on this show. We’re gonna chat about things happening in the news, and you’ll definitely hear our opinions on it. And we’re gonna spotlight how you can use theater activism. That’s right. Theater activism to shift the conversation and make real change. And we’ll share calendar-worthy events coming up, and we’re gonna close out with things that bring us joy. So stay tuned and enjoy the show.

(Music)

[00:00:45] Shanna Bennett: And now, our in the news segment. We felt like it was necessary to talk about things that people should know about because there’s a lot going on in the news regarding student loans and student loan debt. And we’re all busy. You know, we got jobs, we’ve got kids, we’ve got mortgages. And so it’s kind of a challenge to keep it all straight.

And so we figured we would present you with a segment where we review some of the happenings and current events regarding student debt. And so, we can dive right into this appeal that was made on the Sweet vs. Cardona case.

Quick recap: remember there’s a Borrower Defense Repayment. It is a program that borrowers are supposed to have access to as a means of acknowledging that their schools have defrauded them in some way, have misled them in some way. But during the Trump administration very little applications were processed. Very few applications were approved, and we see where the Biden administration is trying to make up for lost time regarding that. But in the meantime, a group of borrowers that went to for-profit schools have essentially sued the Department of Education and they’re saying, ‘Hey, this is a problem. Like we’ve, we’ve applied. It’s been years. We haven’t heard anything.’

[00:02:20] Nikki Nolan: And so a judgment was made, I think it was, mid-November, and then there was a period of time where an appeal could have been made. There was an appeal and I think the appeal was made sometime in January. It was the worst and, and it basically, yeah, was allowing people who had applied for borrower’s defense that were in this group before June 22nd of 2020 to have those deaths from the predatory schools cancel student debt. We actually had Teresa Sweet and Alicia Davis on for Episode 58: Sweet vs. Cardona Victory. And it’s just, yeah- it, I don’t know. I don’t know how you all feel, but I’m like, we probably, we saw it coming, but it’s just so devastating.

[00:02:52] Shanna Bennett: It’s supposed to be like a monumental case in terms of the debt. So I believe that they’ve moved past the appeal and I think that, I think it was after February 15th. Now Judge Alsup, I always mispronounce his name. I think it’s Alsup. I think he’ll be ruling soon. So I’m pretty sure all the folks that are tied to that case are just waiting like pins and needles because I believe they’re just waiting for a judgment at this point.

I hope that it goes in our favor. I think that it’s good for these for-profit schools to acknowledge that they can’t continue to take advantage of borrowers. And I think in terms of the Department of Education, it’s good that they’re acknowledging that this program has essentially failed, and so hopefully, you know, good changes will come from it. But yes, it’s really aggravating the whole situation. It, it’s just a mess of a program and it, it looks like they’re really trying to move forward.

[00:03:45] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, and, and we’ll link to the show notes so you can get the most up-to-date information on what’s happening in the Sweet vs. Cordona as it’s evolving. But yeah, February 15th is, I think, when they had the closing stuff and now we’re just sort of waiting.

How do you feel Talia? You’re hanging out here with us. Is there anything you have to say about this?

[00:04:05] Talia Molé: It’s almost, it’s the same, the same song we’re hearing over and over again. We get to a point, the student debtors get to a point where the, the case is in our favor. Everything ends in our favor. And then somebody comes in, sweeps the, a counter argument, and then there’s a dam stay that doesn’t allow us to move.

[00:04:28] Nikki Nolan: It feels like by design to keep us, like, not hopeful, but we gotta stay hopeful. We gotta keep fighting. Tthere is a better world out there that we can be a part of and we can’t, we can’t let the bastards get us down.

[00:04:40] Talia Molé: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So I’m just, curious to really just see what happens after, you know, I mean, this would be a, a good time to, to segue into the February 28th, where the Supreme Court will hear the case on, Biden’s first, you know, the cancellation of, $10K, $20K. What’s gonna happen with that?

[00:05:03] Shanna Bennett: Yeah, and I think when we had them on the show, Teresa Sweet and Alicia Davidson. One of the things that was really inspiring was listening to ’em talk about how long they’ve actually been fighting for this. Cause it’s been years. And for, you know, the greater scope of us it feels like we’ve been at this for, for a minute. And so it’s inspiring to hear that even though it’s taken so long, they’re getting closer to justice and um, here we are with this February 28th date with these two cases up for the Supreme Court to review. And that’ll be really interesting also cuz we’re sitting against this kind of conservative court and, it’ll be interesting to see what they do.

I don’t know. Again, shout out to the Debt Collective who is hosting amongst other organizations a protest outside of the courthouse on February 28th.

[00:05:07] Nikki Nolan: Later in the episode we’ll, we’re gonna bring on people to talk a little bit about that.

[00:05:30] Shanna Bennett: Yeah.

[00:05:56] Nikki Nolan: And we’re also gonna be talking about stuff that’s happening on March 1st. If you can’t join on the 28th, like you can join this theater. I’ll let Talia tell you about it a little bit, even though we’re going to have a whole segment on how exciting it is.

But yeah, on February 28th. there’s the SCOTUS stuff which- there’s going to be a rally, we’ll talk more about it in the episode, but Talia is also doing–

[00:06:23] Talia Molé: Yeah. Yeah. There’s the, a lot of things that we will be at spotlighting in the spotlight segment of this episode. We’ll, we’ll talk a little bit about the February 28th and March 1st Days of Action that are leading up to that. But going back to the SCOTUS, hearing that we’re waiting anxiously for, and, and, and the resolution of that. You know, I mean, honestly there, there’s a little piece of me of course that just feels that because the court is so right-leaning that we’re not necessarily going to get the answer that we want, but the good thing is that there are other ways to go about the cancellation.

You know, the Biden Administration used the Heroes Act, but we know that there’s other tools that we can use to really achieve full cancellation, which is really what we’re seeking. Not just $10K, $20k, but one step at a time. Right? So after we just need to close this cycle out and, sue them again. (laughs)

We will keep , going at it until we get what we want, which is full cancellation for all of a very unjust, yeah. Unjust.

[00:07:39] Shanna Bennett: I think something else too that could have been missed in the news. It wasn’t last week, I think it was the week before the Biden administration launched a brand new website for Borrower Defense Repayment. And I only bring that up because we’re talking about the Sweet vs. Cardona case. And you know, one of the things that Teresa mentioned was how complicated back in the day that application was.

And so now there is a brand new website devoted to that with quote unquote more simple instructions. And so that is out there. If it’s something that you’re considering, if you are, if you’re feeling like you didn’t really get what you paid for with your college experience, and again, if you were misled or defrauded in some way, check it out.

Cause it is a way, you know, to access debt cancellation. And it is an outlet that’s there and available to us. So check that out.

[00:08:31] Nikki Nolan: There was also some terrible news that that happened actually. It just like came. This week that Republican senators are filing a bill to force payments to start again. The bill, it’s called Stop Reckless Student Loan Action Act. And the bill is, like, put up to end the student loan cause, even though it would allow the President to temporarily suspend payments for low income and middle income borrowers. But they’re basically trying to force payments to start. Which is, just from everything that I’ve heard and from all the people we’ve talked to, when they turn it on it is going to– they’re not turning it on because it’s going to be a fiery mess of hell. Basically, they have lost people too, and in order to actually start collecting from people, they have to notify people. But they don’t even know where a significant portion of people are. They just don’t have their addresses.

They don’t have any of their information. It seems, and we’ll, we’ll probably bring people on to talk about this if this threat becomes actually real, but that in the news- That’s still, that’s so, it’s just so ridiculous.

[00:09:46] Talia Molé: Yeah. And, and, you know, going to this Republican bill that was introduced. I mean, clearly it’s the, it’s so that the President cannot do this type of pausing or loan forgiveness that is tied to a national emergency. Again, tied to the Hero’s Act. And again, we have the Higher Education Act that can be used, that does not need an, a national emergency in order to be, enacted. So…

[00:10:17] Shanna Bennett: Yeah.

[00:10:17] Talia Molé: I, again, I, I feel like this is just a cycle that needs to close out before we begin a new one. And you know, something that you mentioned, Nikki, which is really important, I think too to highlight, is the awareness of people right now and all the activists that have been, activated, let’s say, during this time of pause.

[00:10:38] Because one thing that has really, really been highlighted is the reality that our, our payments are not, you know? It does not need us to just be sheep and follow what they tell us to do. And so, I really feel that the turning on the pause is going to bring a lot of people to a point where they’re just thinking- where I, I feel that there’s gonna be insult to injury.

[00:11:09] Is that the, that the saying? You know, it’s kind of —

[00:11:12] Shanna Bennett: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:14] Talia Molé: –to think that after everything that the pause has shown, after all of the attention, national and international attention, that this situation has brought forward, you know, it is brought to, to, to, to the top, let’s say. That you would all think that we will just continue things as usual and sign our lives away, like always, that’s not going to happen there. Really it’s not, it’s not- and also, you know, we’re very close to an election year, you know, that’s not gonna look good for also the, the, the Democrats. And yeah, I, I just feel like it’s not going to happen to tell you the truth.

[00:11:59] There’s gonna be an extension and quite frankly, if there isn’t an extension, yeah, I do think that shit’s gonna hit the fan and it’s gonna get really ugly.

Nikki Nolan: it’s gonna get really nasty. Yeah. We brought on episode 34, John Berg came on and he actually – it’s a whistleblower. And he was, he has been in the room when they have used 20 US code 1082 to actually cancel student debt. He’s seen it happen before. He, he worked for the Department of Education. He was a whistleblower saying that there was like a bunch of crap happening with the servicers and sued a bunch of the servicers, to, to do it.

So like, the way, yeah, so the legal way that Biden is approaching this is, like, at least in my non-legal opinion, like, just one path that he can go down. But it doesn’t even seem like the most, like substantial, has-the-best-legs path. So there’s definitely more ways we can approach how ridiculous this whole whole thing is. Honestly.

Shanna Bennett: just to repeat the name of this: it’s the Stop Reckless Student Loan Actions Act. :ike if you, you’ve already lost us at the name, like you’ve already lost us at the name. What about. Held reckless . It’s funny cause I just had a video on this and I said it should be called Stop Universities from Hiking Up Prices Beyond what anyone could afford.

[00:13:24] Shanna Bennett: Act like that should have been the act if you really wanna have something to stand on. But instead we wanna , we wanna force people that can’t afford it further into debt instead of standing up for them. We wanna stand up for it just doesn’t make any. And also it’s just, it’s more political theatrics because these Republicans are up against a democratically controlled Senate.

[00:13:46] So it, this probably won’t even get any votes. It probably won’t even go anywhere. It’s just to have some headlines in the news at this point, you know? So,

[00:13:56] Talia Molé: Yeah. And I, I wanted to just also really quickly highlight something that the debt collective posted. You know, as far as all of the people that the data collected from the people that applied for the relief, the 10 k, 20 K relief, which just came out from, politic. most people, and this is in, the debt collective’s Instagram page that you can, look at.

[00:14:22] you know, they say for years bad faith pendant said student debt cancellation would help rich white people who were super wealthy. Well, guess what? They lied. Here’s the data. And so some of the things that they’re showing, Less than 1% of applications came from the wealthiest zip codes. Most of the applications came from places where the per capita income is under 35 K.

[00:14:45] majority non-white neighborhoods accounted for more student debt applications per capita, the majority white zip. Then you have some numbers. More than 98% of applications came from ZIP codes where the average income is under 75 K.

[00:15:02] Talia Molé: About two thirds were from neighborhoods within average income below 40 K. Student debtors living in lower income areas applied for relief at a far higher rate compared to those living in wealthier. So this is to say whatever help that, you know, the people had applied for, they are people that are not, number one, being reckless and number two, wealthy

[00:15:32] Shanna Bennett: Right, right.

[00:15:33] Talia Molé: So that’s really important to highlight as a, as a.

[00:15:36] Nikki Nolan: yeah, and we’re gonna link, we’ll link to the Debt Collectives Instagram, all of these stories that we’re talking about. We’ll have links in our show notes, which you can find like below the podcast or on our website, matter of life and debt.com. This is episode 6 62, this episode. Is there anything top of mind for you all before we like transition into our spotlight segment?

[00:15:56] Shanna Bennett: I think the only thing is, there are a couple articles I’ve seen where it talks about the administration being pressured into developing this plan B and. There have been a couple quotes coming from the White House basically saying that no, like they don’t have a backup plan. They’re incredibly confident with their legal standing and they’re not, you know, creating some alternate strategy like this.

[00:16:22] Is it ? And I kind of appreciate them doubling down like that. And not bending to pressure, so like have another plan, but at the very same time we do see where they’re tweaking various repayment plans and different programs to make allowance for more debt forgiveness for more $0 monthly payments. And, you know, that seems to be their plan B.

[00:16:48] So I think that’s, that’s interesting.

[00:16:49] Nikki Nolan: and I hate it. I don’t like their plan B. I think their plan B. Garbage. I think they need to have an actual plan B, that that isn’t just more bureaucracy and more, let’s kick the can down the road. As Astra

[00:17:03] Talia Molé: The only plan B we’re freaking looking for is full cancellation, period. We’re not being forgiven for anything. Just cancel the damn thing and you know, stop the courts from taking over this way.

[00:17:14] Nikki Nolan: it’s really ridiculous. It’s like you just wanna make it more bureaucratic, more hard for people, and ugh. I don’t know. I, I just was lost for words. I just could be like,

[00:17:25] Talia Molé: yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Same.

[00:17:27] Shanna Bennett: And I think lately what’s bugging too is like this emphasis on. The Covid 19 pandemic, which I know is linked to the Heroes Act, which is why they’re using it. But like, don’t blame the pandemic. Like how about we blame the system that got us here in the first place? Cause it sucked before the pandemic.

[00:17:42] The pandemic has nothing to do with it. We already were like this before . I mean, if we need a scapegoat, fine, but let’s not a carried away

[00:17:52] Talia Molé: I mean, think about it, this, the, the whole idea I think of, of student debt and, and the possibility that it could blow up in somebody’s face, was very real from, very early on. Hence the creation of the higher ed act, the fact that that.

[00:18:12] Shanna Bennett: Right,

[00:18:13] Talia Molé: Already shows that they did it because there’s a possibility where it can get overwhelming to the system

[00:18:20] Shanna Bennett: right, right.

[00:18:22] Nikki Nolan: Yeah.

[00:18:23] Talia Molé: and it clearly.

[00:18:24] Nikki Nolan: Yeah. We’ve gotten to a place where we’ve made a huge mess. there’s no other way to speak about it than it, it being a huge mess. An upward mobility tax, a unneeded burden on people who are just seeking education

[00:18:41] is there anything else before we move on to the spotlight segment?

[00:18:46] Shanna Bennett: I don’t think.

[00:18:47] Nikki Nolan: I’m so excited about this spotlight segment.

[00:18:49] Shannon and I are going to sign off and we’re gonna let Talia, since Talia’s so involved with this project, take over the conversation. But Shannon and I will be back. You and I will be back to, to share some events and to talk about what’s bringing us joy.

[00:19:04]

[00:19:09] Talia Molé: Well, hello, everyone. This is a really exciting little segment that we’re starting on. Matter of Life and Debt. This is a spotlight. Segment where we are dedicating the platform to highlighting really cool, interesting projects that are starting. And I am delighted to have, you all as our first project to spotlight.

[00:19:36] Y’all. This is a really, really cool theater troupe we are called we liberated people of the deck, collective theater activism. troupe.And with me, I have Elisha Bacon, Dr. Shemel Bell, and Todd Squi Welcome to the segment everyone.

[00:19:56] Dr. Shamell Bell: Thank

[00:19:57] Todd Squitieri: Thank.

[00:19:58] Talia Molé: And with that lam, Take it to Dr. Shemel Bell and, tell us a little bit about why theater activism and how that, arrived for us in the de collective.

[00:20:10] yeah, I’m Dr. Shemel Bell. I have the title of Visionary Escalator of the Debt Collective. So, I came on last year to elevate. Social justice movements through art. And so I brought in, you know, dance.

[00:20:28] Dr. Shamell Bell: So we did crump and then now we’re doing, theater. And I also have several healing modalities, that I like to bring into the deck Collective for me. I was trained in Theater of the Oppress alongside my son at the time. He was eight years old and we were trained by Augusta BALs son and the Center Theater of the Oppress.

[00:20:51] And so, amazing Baba Ra Santos and Gio. They were incredible in, you know, give us, giving us the foundation, but something that’s really cool about me. I got a PhD from ucla. in, culture and performance, and a part of my dissertation is talking about Paulo Freres. the, pedagogy of the oppress and then bell hooks is engaged pedagogy.

[00:21:17] And then I kind of also did, my work in street dance activism cuz I was a like founder or like, they like to call it founder. I don’t like that. Original member is what I call it, of black Lives Matter, Los Angeles. And I started to do something called Street Dance Activism, where we would dance at protests as a spatial intervention, but mostly, you know, healing modalities, you know, lifting frequencies and vibrations.

[00:21:43] And in my dissertation, I started to call it Choreographies of the Liberated. So I would move in my. Building off of Boal to, choreographer’s, choreographies of the oppress going towards a process of transformation to choreographies of the liberated. And so that’s what’s interesting about bringing this work with you all.

[00:22:07] To the debt collective as a form of theater activism because I have in the past used legislative theater at UCLA and different places to make interventions in legislation at U UCLA that actually did come to Pass and solutions, with vice chancellors, because of racist incidents that were happening at UCLA family housing.

[00:22:29] So now I’m really, really interested to make interventions. you know, student loan debt, cancellation. So that was a long way of going about that.

[00:22:41] Talia Molé: No, absolutely. Thank you for that. Thank you Shamal, bring in a lot, you bring in an incredible, wealth of knowledge. Elijah, I wanted to ask you now, what are the amazing guests that you bring, to. The theater activism troupe, what called you?

[00:22:57] Alÿcia Bacon: so I also studied theater in college. I got a minor in theater, as my bachelor’s degree. And I studied, philosophy with my major. Then I got a master’s in Africana studies. And, addition to that I’ve always been doing theater even as a child. But my specialty was kinda movement and acting without necessarily relying on.

[00:23:21] Which I found to be very powerful and very transformative for me personally, working through some of my fears. I got involved in activism, cause of voting right issues and just making concerns around our democracy. And that led to me working in. climate Justice. I’m a full-time organizer for Mothers Instate New York.

[00:23:42] We focus on, community involved, engaged in the.

[00:23:51] Find that there’s a connection between these things and the work I did in philosophy in Africana studies. Cause there are a lot of great philosophies that come from continent

[00:24:08] addition, individual wellness. And so I got connected to the debt collective just as far as I had student loan debt and I believe in the mission and I joined. Story time where we were working on how to, how to write our personal stories. And we talked about doing a mock trial, which I found to be just so exciting.

[00:24:29] Cause I wrote a song, a punk song that was about, you know, the people holding our elected accountable and having, you know, basically a mock try on getting justice, in our own way, even if it. More in the imaginary spec, but I did the sort of theater training with Theater Theater of New York City and then have continued, my own education in AL’S work, through reading and, working with other actors in my area.

[00:25:00] And I’m also gonna be speaking at, this Pedagogie conference in Indiana. Julian. So I’m really excited about that. And so in Albany we’ve been, working on, theater of Liberated is what we’ve called our troop that we’re forming out here. But I connected group of organizers of the collective and it seemed like a good time to.

[00:25:25] You know, infuse the work that we’re doing with theater and activism. And so, part of this, activism forming and very excited to see what we can, get, what success we’ll achieve with it when it comes to theater and activism and art and activism, you know, I, for me, it infuses joy into something that is, already empowering but also kinda painful.

[00:25:51] Cause we’re working towards, we’re advocating for ourselves because we have a need that’s not being met and our politics and our government is now. It can be very depressing. It can feel hopeless, which is. You know, they want us to feel, because if you feel hopeless and you are depressed or less likely to fight the system, but when we bring in activism and combine it with art and theater, for me, that infuses joy, which, and it helps us form community, which a really amazing woman once told me is the antidote, community is the antidote to despair.

[00:26:27] And so I think regardless of whether or not. We’re able to achieve our, our in the next foreseeable future. I know that we success with initiative that we’re

[00:26:46] and achieve what we set to do eventually.

[00:26:52] Dr. Shamell Bell: Mike dropped. Come on.

[00:26:55] Talia Molé: Here Ashay. Elisha’s also an amazing, wealth of, of knowledge. her activism is on fire. I got to talk, to hear her speak yesterday at Mother’s Out Front and. I was very, very impressed with, with your work, Elijah. So, moving on to Todd, Todd, who’s always so bubbly and vibrant. tell us what brought you to, be part of this theater activist group.

[00:27:23] Todd Squitieri: Oh, well, thank you for having me. And, and I, I think really, Dr. Bell and Elisha really just said it really well, and I’m, I’m sort of new to the activist space, but I’ve been with the Debt Collective for a while now, since since graduating college and having my own, debt burdens to, to bear. But, you know, I’ve been in.

[00:27:44] This space with many amazing, just really sophisticated people who have inspired me to look at different sources of reading and, and just, other, other, belief systems that have gotten me into my own sort of journey on exploring, different modes of theater since that was my initial interest growing up, being in the drama club at Haney School and doing theater in college, I’d.

[00:28:09] Used theater as building community and being a part of where I was, wherever I was. So it just seemed like a natural fit to, inquire within the debt collective ways that I could use my interest to be of service to the community and the collective trauma that we’re all facing in this time. So, you know, the, the creation of of this troop really came about, well, at least my joining.

[00:28:36] It came about from me exploring who was in the debt collective that also had similar interests, and that also brought me to Talia and having a conversation that one fateful day , when we were discussing ways that we could use theater, and you turned me onto Augusta Baals work, and that got me reading.

[00:28:55] All of the, the, the, the books that he, he wrote from Games for actors and non-actors, theater of the Oppressed, legislative Theater, and even Rainbow Desire. I read all of those books and it just got me more and more inspired as I was reading these books, I was like, Wow, we could really use these, this tool, we could really be using this in our era right now.

[00:29:20] And so that also got me exploring, you know, who’s in the debt collective, who’s in New York, where I’m originally from, who’s in the States, who’s doing this. And so that kind of helped the conversa guide the conversation forward with everybody. And then, you know, before, before I knew it, we were in Zoom meetings, creating all these different events and it’s just been so amazing to be around.

[00:29:41] So, creative, just individuals. I’m just so inspired every time I’m on these calls with people and I’m, I’m very grateful to be in this space, in this being with such amazing role models, like everybody in this room and everybody who couldn’t be here today. So that’s a little bit of my background riff with the, with the movement right now.

[00:30:03] Talia Molé: Thank you, Todd. And you know, I think I could segue a little bit just to say and situate very quickly, you know, theater the oppress, just because we’ve said that, but I didn’t necessarily, introduce it in the beginning. one of the types of theater activism that, theories if you will, or format, that we use within theater, activism is theater The Oppressed, by Augusto.

[00:30:23] it brings us a certain awareness, right, as to what is holding us back, what’s oppressing us.

[00:30:29] it, it highlights our position in the system, and then it allows us a space to really activate our imagination so that we can collectively find. Ways to work through that. Right. And arrive at healing. Arrive at working together. Collectivity, arrive at joy. And you know, one thing that I, yesterday, in a conversation with Todd and others, again talking about this work that we’re doing, we talked about how, you know, when there’s an.

[00:31:02] it, it reminded us of ants, right? Like when there’s an issue in the colony of ants, it’s not one little ant that’s going and tackling the issue. It’s the whole entire, like hundreds and thousands of them, you know, and they get the work done, right? And I think that. That’s a beautiful thing, not just about theater, but about art, that it can really show us, the beauty around us so we can be inspired and, we can really, take.

[00:31:30] Talia Molé: Yeah, inspiration from the way other systems around us work to really tackle, that which, is conflicting. So with that, I just wanna say that this is an incredible project that we are all, so fortunate to, to be a part of. We’re so fortunate that we found each other, we’re so fortunate that we’re working together and weaving ourselves into the other, into this collective.

[00:31:57] You know, we talk about theater, the oppress, but we’re gonna be using other types of theater activism, from Yeah. Playback theater to just, different styles of theater. You know, in general. It doesn’t just have to be vo, agri, pop, you know, all of these things that are coming to, to, up to the surface for us.

[00:32:15] Anything that’s going to give us a space to be, to really activate the imagination. in there is the key to the revolution. You activate the imagination, you can get things done. So with that, I want to just, to whoever wants to answer, who would like to promote our day of action. We have February 28th and March 1st.

[00:32:37] Dr. Bell. Can you let us know, more about the work that the troop will be engaging or offering, February 28th and March 1st.

[00:32:46] Dr. Shamell Bell: Beautiful. So several organizations such as the NAACP and the Deck Collective, we will be having a people’s rally. For student debt cancellation at the Supreme Court. And so that is February 28th and we will be there at 8:00 AM. We’ll have a lot of speakers. It’s your traditional rally. I will also be doing a radical joy intervention, which is my role as the visionary escalator.

[00:33:12] We bring in dance, we bring in, you know, meditation and kind of, you know, transmute the shame and the guilt that, you know, student debt has. Thrusted on our backs, right? And so we kind of move our, our bodies through that. And then the The very next day we will be having our theater activism workshop. So we will be at Lafayette Square, I believe it’s called in at the White House. And we will be there from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM And basically, you can think of this as a way of collecting folks with collective power.

[00:33:48] And it’s a free theater workshop. And so we will be, you know, using form theater, we will be using, maybe legislative theater. and, you know, telling you a little bit about the differences. And, most importantly we’ll be using as a backdrop for, you know, promoting to gather more people in. We, the liberated people of the Deck Collective, theater, activism, troupe, as well as possibly.

[00:34:16] Incorporating legislators into our next iteration. So inviting the AOCs and folks who, you know, Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders, folks who say they are against student debt and are for the full cancellation of it, let’s actually do some theater that will have some solutions and bring it to legislators.

[00:34:40] So yeah, if you all. Would contact me at the debt collective. So it’s chanel@debtcollective.org, S H A M E L l@debtcollective.org. shemel@debtcollective.org. and you can get involved and There will also be a virtual option for folks on March 1st. That will be led by the La Thalia, Todd, and Amy and other folks would be there.

[00:35:16] So, and Holly will be there. With my Harvard University students, I am a lecturer and theater dance and media at Harvard, and my students will actually be engaging in theater activism with folks from we, the Liberated People of the Death Collect.

[00:35:35] Talia Molé: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Thank you Shael. And also just wanna plug in a, regarding March 1st and the virtual component of, the protests, the theater activism. We highly encourage folks that have kids. That have babies that think that, because there’s a little human crying in the background, you can’t join.

[00:35:58] This is not true. We’re all part of this collective struggle. You know, we are doing this together, so, On the March 1st, virtual component, piece, there will be a breakout room that will be dedicated to parents with kids, and we will have some theater games, some activities to do with your child, so that you don’t feel like just because you.

[00:36:25] A younger kid that you need to tend to and you can’t be on the ground, or you know, just because you think that, oh, you know, there, there might be too much noise in the background. No, our, our children crying and being human, is not noise. You can definitely bring that in and we can be inspired by that and use that in some great, games.

[00:36:44] Dr. Shamell Bell: Yes. I also wanted to mention that my now 12 year old who’s also trained in Theodore of the oppress, will be helping to joker in person and we will be online So please check out the Debt Collective, website and our debt collective Instagram to get.

[00:37:03] More, details and follow us. But yes, we will have my son who is 12, being a joker. So yes, children are welcome. This is an intergenerational conversation in theater activism as political activity. So,

[00:37:20] Talia Molé: Thank you. Yes. And check back, just for the times. I think they, they are solidified, but they’re, they’re not, we don’t have them just yet, but we’ll make sure, and once we have it, we’ll, On this episode, in the show notes, lovely people. Is there anything else you would like to say before we head off to our next segment?

[00:37:38] Any final words?

[00:37:40] I just wanna, reinforce that idea of joy as liberation and an actor rebellion and. So, that’s what we’re be engaging in, but that’s something that.

[00:37:57] Talia Molé: Mm-hmm. . Yes. Thank you. And with that spirit of. I wanna thank you all for sharing this, time with me in this very special segment. Spotlighting, we deliberated people of the debt collective theater activism, troupe, it is an honor to work with you all, and to share space as comrades, as friends.

[00:38:22] This is gonna be awesome.

[00:38:23] Dr. Shamell Bell: We’re gonna take over the world.

[00:38:26] Talia Molé: Yes,

[00:38:26] Dr. Shamell Bell: No, I, I just wanted to jump in and just say like, I have such a great feeling about like what we’re gonna do in shifting. Like I can feel the shift. So just thank you so much for being a, now an international theater activism T troop. This is gonna be f.

[00:38:47] Talia Molé: Yeah, we’re we’re doing big things. Yeah. Watch out. Watch out for us. We’re about to make some pretty, pretty, pretty big noise. . Thank you all

[00:38:57] And now please join us for a really important segment on, upcoming events in the month of March. These are events that are not just, solely for the debt collective. There’s so much going on and we want you all to be a, aware of them so you can put ’em in your calendar.

[00:39:13] So please join us for the Black women Dream Space every fourth Sunday, at 11:00 AM Pacific and 2:00 PM. Eastern, and so it’s on Zoom.

[00:39:24] Dr. Shamell Bell: So go ahead and go to debt collective.org and imagine what a life without debt feels like. And so we release Guilt and Shame and Freedom Dream. So black women Dream Space every fourth Sunday.

[00:39:38] Alÿcia Bacon: I have. Coming up on March 20, and then we’re gonna be targeting a couple banks. Is this gonna be in Albany, New York? That people are gonna be coming up from all over New York State? We’re gonna march and we’ve done this. We a letter to these banks, this, it’s Chase, and it’s gonna be Wells Fargo, and I believe Citibank.

[00:40:05] And we’re letting them know that. See them. We know that they’re funding these fossil field projects that are polluting our communities and it’s unacceptable. And if they don’t stop, then we’re going to be from their banks. And I’m really excited cause I’m part of the Red Rebel Brigade, which is something I think was started by the Extinction Rebellion.

[00:40:29] There’s different. Of red rebels all over the world, and we dress in some, to represent humanity in a common, shared, commonalities. Our blood is the same. And, and so we make a presence there and, and, that’s part of the event. So last time we. Move slowly and we’ve walked the street, as part of our activism.

[00:40:54] So we’re gonna be doing something like that again, and we’re looking forward to it. So that’s March. My organization, mothers Out, is a cosponsor. It’s, hosted by, rivers and Mountains and Stop the Money Pipeline and you can find more information out, at Green Face, circle, rivers, and Mountain. If you, Google that, it’ll come up, but I can provide the link to Talia, later.

[00:41:20] Todd Squitieri: I don’t have any specific event dates for this, but I do wanna plug a new branch of the debt collective that is starting to form for disability rights. That impacts so many different types of people, you know, so many different identities and, and. For people in the disability movement. It has had a u unique impact.

[00:41:39] So I do want to plug that development and you could check the Deck Collective website for the, for the online Zoom events that are taking place every month where we discuss ways that we can work together. Support each other in, in, in supporting disability rights in the debt collective movement.

[00:41:59] Shanna Bennett: Following up on upcoming event. The Debt Collective has this really interesting book club. It’s called The Black Praxis Project Book Club. the book that they’ll be covering is the Nation on No Map, black Anarchism and Abolition. Pretty cool.

[00:42:20] It’s gonna be Sundays. March 5th through April 16th, and it’ll be at 2:00 PM et, and 11:00 AM PT links for that will be on our website, so check that out. If you’re interested in joining the book Club, Talia, is there anything else going on that you know about?

[00:42:37] Talia Molé: Absolutely. Yes. And I love a good book, so make sure to go that. I have a good, two events that are ongoing. a new member call for the deck collective, March 20th at eight 30, pm Eastern Standard Time.

[00:42:55] So if you want to get to know the Deck, collective join, get, you know, Get involved. Go ahead and, join the new member call. We will have links to that as well on the episode, show notes, and another very cool series, a Jubilee School series that will be starting March 28th. At 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.

[00:43:23] this one’s a very cool one. I’ve, I’ve attended a couple of these before and collaborated in them and they’re just a wealth of knowledge. this series is going to be hidden costs shedding a light on the impact Carceral debt on women and mothers. very good information that’s gonna come out of that.

[00:43:41] Talia Molé: So please go ahead and join that. Again, that is March 28th at 8:00 PM. Standard Time, and we’ll also have links to that on our show notes.

[00:43:52] Shanna Bennett: Thank you. I wanna add, that new member call is great if you wanna meet people that are going through the same things that you’re going through, whatever debt you have. I’ve met some really great people that way. I’ve met Talia and, some other really great members of the debt collective that way. So think about it.

[00:44:08] If you wanna join that, that new member call.

[00:44:10] Talia Molé: Shauna, what do you think? We bring Nikki back cuz she’s been here, on the platform. Not saying anything. If you all got to see Nikki,

[00:44:18] Shanna Bennett: at us.

[00:44:19] Talia Molé: Our tech extraordinaire, and she has made it possible to not get any background noise. She’s under a tent right now. And, with that feeling of happiness and laughter, though we feel right now, we definitely wanna close off the show with a little bit of joy.

[00:44:36] What brings us joy today in this month, and always Nikki

[00:44:41] Nikki Nolan: What is bringing me joy? There is a lot of things bringing me joy. I just accepted a job offer and will be the head of product design at a company starting in. April. So I’m very excited and the organization. Bring, healthy food from local farmers to, people who are low income, who are chronically sick and disabled, hoping to provide healthy meals to like assist with some of their conditions.

[00:45:15] So it, it seems like a really cool company and project and I’m really excited to do that. So that’s bringing me a little bit of joy right now.

[00:45:23] Talia Molé: That’s awesome.

[00:45:24] Nikki Nolan: How about you, Shannon?

[00:45:25] Shanna Bennett: Oh my gosh. Okay. Since you got us started with the work theme, I will say that. work has been, a challenge recently cause I had a team and now it’s just me and I made an offer to someone recently to join me, so I’ll be kind of rebuilding this team and I really look forward to having more help and I look forward to working with a new person with new energy, a new personality.

[00:45:57] and just frankly, I’m looking forward to getting my life back a little bit. Going on a walk, having a workout, like having time to get groceries. So that’s bringing me a lot of joy and I’m holding a lot of positivity and I hope that that, that goes well. . Talia, what about you? What’s bringing you joy right now?

[00:46:14] Talia Molé: Well, you know, I’m gonna go back to the books cuz you know, I did mention how I love a good book and I feel like this book is bringing me a lot of joy right now. as, as those of you that might have heard me in previous episodes, I, I always say that I’m a lover of Utopias and, they’re important to just reimagine the future that we want to be living.

[00:46:35] And right now I’m reading this really cool book called Love After the End, an anthology of Two-Spirit and in Digi queer speculative fiction edited by Joshua Whitehead. And it’s. It’s absolutely delicious. It’s so cool if you are into speculative fiction and just, imagining just a beautiful new world for all.

[00:47:03] And that’s bringing me joy today, y’all.

[00:47:07] Nikki Nolan: Lovely. That sounds so lovely. I’m excited. There’s so many books. Ugh, I gotta get written.

[00:47:13] Shanna Bennett: Seriously.

[00:47:13] Talia Molé: yeah. I have a friend, a dear friend. Shout out to Todd because he was actually in our, spotlight segment and, we were talking about how books are just universes. And it’s a beautiful gift to be able to share a book with somebody, whether it’s like this or, you know, a hard cover or however it is.

[00:47:33] Sharing a book with somebody is really sharing a, a, a whole new world.

[00:47:39] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, quad

[00:47:41] Talia Molé: where else?

[00:47:42] Nikki Nolan: I love that you just sang. Todd was awesome. After the spotlight. I hung out with him for a little bit and I’m really excited what they’re doing with disability in debt. That’s really exciting.

[00:47:53] Talia Molé: That’s also bringing me joy because I, I really, yeah, I, I’ve been a big supporter of his and, and, and the move that the DI collective is doing with this. So that’s also bringing.

[00:48:04] Nikki Nolan: have one more thing that’s bringing me joy and I know we were only gonna do one thing, but like it’s so exci. I’m like listening to you all talk about. , this theater project that you all are working on earlier in this episode. I don’t know. It’s just everyone is just so awesome and just like this persistent, pushing forward for a better world for all of us.

[00:48:25] Even in this moment that feels like such adversity, so many things that feel like not working, I love, we just have to put one foot in front of the other and continue to maintain, inspiration from each other, and I was really inspired by that conversation, so thank you.

[00:48:42] Talia Molé: Yeah. And isn’t that a cool name that the collective came up with? I mean, we deliberated people of the deck, collective theater, activism, troupe. It’s long and it takes up all the necessary space. And it’s loud in the mouth. I mean, it’s so theatrical and dramatic. I fucking love it. , that brings me joy too. Y’all bring me Joy

[00:49:06] Nikki Nolan: You all bring me joy too. I’m so happy that I have gotten to meet all of you.

[00:49:11] Talia Molé: Yeah, likewise. Likewise. We’re doing big things.

[00:49:15] I just wanted to say thank you so much for being in this process with us as we explore and experiment with the new style of podcasting, if that’s a word. remember that we’ll be showing up once a month from now on at the end of the month, on the last Thursday of. And, I hope that you all are, willing to go on the ride with us.

[00:49:41] If you will, make sure you call us.

[00:49:44] Shanna Bennett: Our number is (510) 479-0323. Call us. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about something that makes you happy. Tell us about your experience with debt, and you’ll be, you’ll be featured on the show. We look so. , we’re looking forward to connecting with you in this way and making the show more interactive.

[00:50:06] Nikki Nolan: Thank you so much for being here,

[00:50:08] Talia Molé: Thank you. Thank you. Love you all. Hey, and it’s still February as we, we’re recording this. Yeah, it comes out now on February 23rd. So it’s kind of like the love month. So spread the love

[00:50:26] Shanna Bennett: Thanks for joining us on this episode.

[00:50:28] Talia Molé: See you next time.

[00:50:29] And scene

[00:50:31] Shanna Bennett:If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, subscribe and share it with a friend. It really helps people discover us. Matter of Life and Debt is hosted by me, Shanna. It is produced by Shanna Bennett, Emma Klauber, and Nikki Nolan.

It is edited by Nikki Nolan and transcripts is done by Sarah Thibault. Efe Akerman created the theme music.

Visit our website www.matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen to more episodes, access transcripts, and get additional context for the subjects you just heard about. Absolutely for free the website again, www.matteroflifeanddebt.com.

Thanks again for listening.

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