We are excited to have Maddy MADlines Clifford back on the show to share her journey as the Deputy Press Secretary for the Debt Collective. She discusses how her art informs her activism and provides helpful tips for managing activist burnout. Tune in for an enlightening conversation with the accomplished Maddy!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] (Music)

Talia Molé: Hi, I’m Talia Mole filling in for Shanna Bennett today on Matter of Life and Debt. I am sitting with artist, activist, writer Maddie Madlines Clifford. Mad, welcome to the podcast.

Maddy MADlines Clifford: Thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here.

Talia Molé: Yeah, we’re happy, happy, happy to have you. We’re coming up to almost a year since you were last on the podcast and, we’ve been really, really curious. Tell us a little bit about what you’ve been up to from that time to now.

Maddy MADlines Clifford: Yeah. It feels like yesterday when I first started to get involved, and that’s what’s really wild about that question. I was like reflecting and, and thinking but basically I – now I’m the Deputy Press Secretary with The Debt Collective, so-

Talia Molé: Congratulations.

Maddy MADlines Clifford: — thank you. Yeah, so it’s a really great role because I’m able to just learn a lot about press, about using my digital marketing and social media engagement approach to create like activist communities online.

And also just learning a ton about not just student loan debt and all the legal ramifications that are happening right now, but also other debt types from car sold debt to renter’s debt, to school lunch debt and just being able to be, be in community with such amazing organizers within The Debt Collective.

So, there’s been a lot going on. But it’s kind of exciting at the same time because just remembering when first on this podcast and talking about my personal story and that being kind of like the core of, of why I was getting really excited about organizing around this issue. And then, that story still being a really big component and like, especially not just the story, my individual story, but like how that story connected me with Nikki, with Shanna, with other people that have experience with how crushing and debilitating having any debt type is. Whether or not you even have the debt, but like, just what it’s doing to our communities. So that’s exciting that it still remains, like, our stories. That’s kind of like the, the focus. But yeah, it’s, there’s been a lot. Where do I start?

Talia Molé: Well, I have a lot of questions, as to how this has, evolved, blossomed, however we wanna name it. I think one thing that I’m also very curious from having listened to that first episode to now, is how has your artistry and your activism, evolved, changed if you will?

How is it articulated now that you have a, a, a very, central role in, in The Debt Collective? And, and this, this really focused work on debt activism?

Maddy MADlines Clifford: I love that question. I would say that I just really appreciate how being part of the union, they, there’s so much, openness and opportunity for me to try things out and to experiment. I think that, that’s what a lot of the things that artists bring is this experimentation and this curiosity, and sometimes it’s like scary because you just have so much potential.

So you’re kind of like, where do I start? What do I do? It’s also really exciting. I don’t like to like- I don’t like to be micromanaged. I don’t, obviously, I don’t want people telling me that my dreams are too grand and it’s never gonna happen. And so I just really, especially feel like organizing around debt and learning more about it, researching, having conversations with people has really helped me.

Like just, it was my artistic practice, like having a sense of, like, I’m an organizer, but I’m an also an artist and my art is a really, is a key component of my, the way I approach organizing. And it’s like I’m kind of articulating this while I think about it. But yeah, I think that’s what it, what it’s done.

Maddy MADlines Clifford: And also because The Debt Collective is, I think I have mentioned this before, but like Astra is a documentary filmmaker. And there’s a lot of artists out here, and I personally believe everyone’s an artist. And being able to just be who you are and, and organize is great. Because like, for example, like a lot of these conversations are difficult to have when you’re talking about debt. When you’re talking about- And when you can approach it in a creative way, I think it really does help with the organizing efforts in general.

Talia Molé: Yeah. I’m glad you mentioned Astra because one of my questions is definitely about the, the documentary the Freedom Dreams that you were a part of, and you collaborated. But I do wanna throw in that I, I, as an artist myself definitely understand what you’re talking about. I feel that when it comes to activism sometimes there is this tendency to stay at a surface. And it can get, you know, the word that’s coming to mind is that sometimes it can get quite aggressive and we tend to just be on that sort of fight mode.

And there’s definitely this undercurrent, this humanity within activism that I think art can tap into and it makes space for a lot of feeling, feeling and emotions that we definitely need to confront, sit with, work through. And this is where I feel that art and art activism, however we wanna term that is a really important component within the whole idea really of, of activism. I love the way that it invites for just a richer and deeper experience because really activism can be exhausting.

[00:06:07] Talia Molé: And it is. And to have a space where you can unravel those emotions is extremely important. We started with that today, right? Like when, before we started the recording, we were just both saying that we’re emotional people. I think that that’s something that, yes, you’re right, I think we’re, everyone’s an artist because everyone can tap into their emotions, right? Or maybe we should say that everyone has the, the right stuff to be an artist.

[00:06:35] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Right.

[00:06:35] Talia Molé: So long as they tap into that right, they have to be vulnerable really to, to tap into that emotional current and allow their artistry to come out. But yeah, with that said, tell us a little bit- I wanna put that out there about Freedom Dreams, because you touched on that Astra Taylor as a documentary filmmaker and, and other artists that are in The Debt Collective. And, I saw it and I loved it. And I’m, I, I would like for you to, to talk to us a little bit more. I think we need to get more people watching that and, engaged with it.

[00:07:12] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Definitely. so yeah, before talking about that. I wanted to say that like, I completely agree with you when you’re talking about the artistry aspect and I think one of the reasons why anger is often the first emotion is because there’s often like an array of like complex, like a spectrum of emotions that are below beneath the anger. And anger is usually telling us to pay attention. And so, I think that oftentimes art is a great way to, to tap into that, that full spectrum. Like how does it actually feel to, to be indebted? What are the complex emotions that are, that are around that?

And with Freedom Dreams, one of the most important parts of it, And Shemel was the person that spearheaded using the book Freedom Dreams as a catalyst, because it’s all about- instead of being in a reactionary sense of like, this- because oftentimes when we, even when we talk about movement-making or when we talk about black liberation, sometimes it’s this feeling of like constantly reacting, reactionary, but then the freedom dreaming is about imagining. It’s very artistic cuz it’s like, what do we actually dream of? What do we dream about? And it really sheds light on the ways in which black women are disproportionately impacted by student loan debt, although they’re probably disproportionately impacted by all debt types from medical debt to renter’s debt. I would, I don’t have the facts right now in front of me, but I would be very surprised if they weren’t. And so, the film really looks at the ways in which, when we center the experiences of the most marginalized folks, just like bell hooks talks about from margin to center, that it, it really gets everyone free.

[00:08:56] It’s a great way to make sure that people with disabilities, people, all the different ways that people are impacted. That those that need the help the most are getting the help first, and then, and so on and so forth. And that was what I really loved about, about the film.

So in the documentary, there’s Rochelle, Aris, Shaw, and Shemel, and me. And Rochelle and Shemel were kind of like in LA and they were, they had a different lens looking at like as educators.

[00:09:27] we were all pretty much educators in a film, but the way they talked about it, they just had such incredible points about the way that student debt in particular sold this dream. ‘Oh, this is good debt,’ but in reality it’s not. And then, what was cool about my part in, in the piece was at first Astra just asked me, ‘Hey, do you know anyone else that could be possibly be in the film?’

[00:09:52] And I was like, yeah, we need to get as many people as possible. So I asked, my friend Aris, who is a poet as well as my friend Shaw, who is an incredible, like, academic. And we had kind of a kitchen table discussion. So we, we spoke and it was just like watching the film. Afterwards I was like, oh my! Everyone touched on a different point that needed to be said, and I was like, this is perfect.

So it’s just a great teaching tool and, they are continuing to have actually Freedom Dream spaces. So the, the, these are happening actually once a month for black women student debtors, if you would like to come, People, we’re doing that.

[00:10:29] And also, I wanna shout out, Shemel and Nick are also using their creative lens to do some Theater of the Oppressed-type theater. They’re gonna have some mock trials and, and, to kind of shed light on the SCOTUS ruling. So we’re, we’re really using art as much as possible now, which is great.

[00:10:48] Talia Molé: I have to throw that in there. I’m also spearheading that.

[00:10:52] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Okay. Wow. I didn’t even know. See. Okay, so you are involved. Excellent.

[00:10:58] Talia Molé: Yeah. It’s actually a nice little group of us. Yeah. and, I didn’t wanna say anything. That’s for another episode, but, yeah, we’re, we’re cooking up some, some magic spells and see what happens theatrically, so yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I’m glad you brought that up, but what other things have surfaced for you? I mean, when you think of everything that you’ve done as far as activism and, we’ll, we’ll concentrate now, with, with The Debt Collective. You’ve been so immersed in, in learning about different types of debt and how do you use, your artistry, your beliefs to sit with a lot of the, let’s just call it the shit that’s surfacing right now.

[00:11:41] We have all these stays on all of these supposed great actions that are supposed to help student debtors and everything is at a halt. How do you feel, and what do you do to work through that feeling? I mean, I sometimes get exhausted. (laughs)

We work up this huge- especially right before, an action is going to be passed. Let’s just call it like that. And then we go through it and sometimes it feels like we end up back in square one. So I’m wondering- that. Ao how does that make you feel? How do you work through it? And how has that played out through The Debt Collective?

[00:12:32] Maddy MADlines Clifford: That’s a great question. I think, I’m glad that you’re asking that because I, I agree that sometimes it can just be, feel so frazzled and frenzied. Especially when we’re leading up to some kind of ruling or some kind of announcement around student debt. And I, what helps me is realizing this, this is also a tool of, like, our oppressors in a way.

[00:12:53] Like, it’s like just making people jump through hoops and just kind of making, like getting your hopes up. And then this, oh, there’s actually this one other thing that you have to do. And so kind of keeping my, like keeping the, the main goal and focus. Like for example, full automatic cancellation, like seeing that on the horizon so that all the other, for lack of a better word to say it, bullshit that’s happening – even though I’m working toward to explain it to people. To take them through the steps to understand what’s going, what’s happening next. Ultimately that’s like the, the end goal. Because that’s not even the end goal really, because, it’s just like we’re trying to get to zero, can we have a, it’s not can we, we’re, we need a fighting chance. Like we just, it’s, we’re not asking for a lot. And so kind of getting to the nitty gritty of like what it is I’m working towards. And I think this, this exact question is what I’ve been thinking about heading towards the SCOTUS ruling which is going to be coming up February 28th.

[00:13:55] And we do have an event that is going to be happening. We’re going to be protesting in front of the Supreme Court. And, but it’s, it’s complex in a sense. It’s simple, and yet it’s complex because on the one hand the Democrats want us to believe that like there’s nothing they can do and it’s totally up to the courts. Even though if they wanted to expeditiously cancel all federal student loan debt, they could do it with a different legal authority automatically, such as the higher Education Act of 1965. So there’s that. But then on, on top, on top of that, the Supreme Court is, more conservative than it’s been in almost a century.

[00:14:29] So it could very well get, they could strike it down. So on the surface level, people can say, oh, it’s illegal, but it’s not like- I mean, Roe v. Wade was also over, overturned rather, and, and we just are in very, we’re in times when it is urgent, right?

[00:14:48] So it’s, there’s the urgency, but then also remembering, I think the biggest thing is, is paying attention. I actually do something called, I do tarot every morning. I have–

[00:15:00] Talia Molé: of course.

[00:15:01] Maddy MADlines Clifford: I love it. It’s helpful. So there’s this Tarot for Change. I highly recommend it using The Cards for Self-Acceptance and Growth by Jessica Dora.

[00:15:09] I like this one. I pick a random card and then, I, it’s like the cards are based, so it’s like psychological, but also – and I journal. And one of the things in one of the cards that I read, it talks about like attention being a form of prayer.

And if you notice when you go online or when you’re reading the news, it’s just like all this different stuff happening and it’s like you just feel overwhelmed. And you’re like, oh my gosh, there’s so many issues going on. And you, it’s almost like it gets you to burnout and then you just kind of give up. And so I’m working towards creating systems and, and ways of existing that allow me to pay attention and like to be really, be very, very careful with my attention.

So like when I think about debt. For example, one of the things that I love that The Debt Collective tweeted somebody, it might have been Braxton. But it was like, so Americans are forced to borrow money for our basic needs at this point. So, that’s what’s happening, right?

[00:16:10] So you look at the price of eggs, like you look at all these things that are happening, but with debt it’s like you pay interest and it’s a fee on top of the cost of borrowing from rich people. So our bosses, creditors rob the poor twice. and, and when I think about that, I’m like, wow, like that’s ridiculous.

[00:16:29] But it’s like, that’s kind of like a core thing that I’m paying attention to. So whatever it is I’m doing, I’m just like keeping that, that in mind. That that’s what’s happening. So yeah, those are, those are some of the, the practices that I’ve been using.

But this is a great, another reason why that question is really important is, I did feel so… In April when, we went to the action in front of the Department of Education, that was like a pivotal moment in my, in my life and just like in organizing. And then when this, when Biden rolled out his student debt relief plan, it was another big moment. But it, I was overwhelmed. Like, I did feel there were was, there were moments when that was happening when I was so overwhelmed that I just like wanted to disengage, but then I also felt like, oh, this is like a really important, I gotta start writing. I got a Tweet. I got a TikTok, I got to write an op-ed. And I did get really burnt out. So I’m trying to figure out ways to not do that February, for February 28th. So yeah,

[00:17:38] Talia Molé: I, I, I completely agree that there needs to be a moment where we are cognizant of the fact that we must disengage. And there has to be that acceptance of that. Sometimes these, the things that we fight for, the things that we struggle for are so urgent. And we live in a society that is always on the go. And we are told that in order to reach what we want, we should never stop.

[00:18:13] Right? And that’s not good. That is not sustainable at all. And I think- this is something a thread too, I think, that it’s has been quite prominent in The Debt Collective as of recent years, which is how do we maintain this struggle as relevant, and how do we make it sustainable? Because, the great founders, the, or the people that founded The Debt Collective, they have gotten to this point – for many of, in comparison to many of us, they’ve been doing it for a decade longer, especially more than me. And they’re still, that ember is still burning for them, and I find that very inspirational. It, it’s, it, it’s definitely something that I’m curious about and, and I look towards to, to learn from. Because there are times that I’m just like, no, this is, this is too much. And the disconnect becomes like, I go and hide and you don’t hear from me for a while. And when I come back I’m like, oh, what’s going on? You know?

And I, even did that through the Debt, in The Debt Collective as well. I got really into, and then I was like, I’m so pissed off at the fact that we’re here, you know, at this moment. And, but yeah, again, it’s just that balance. How do you just sit and, and allow yourself to disconnect and always find new ways of making the struggle relevant to you and, making sure yeah that you don’t burn out.

I love the fact that you brought up the tarot. I think that that’s something that’s important too. When I talk about, centering our humanity in all of this, that, that there is that point of spirituality that I feel is really important too to highlight as a thread in, in the things that we do, or, or at least I should say, like, make us more holistic,

[00:20:15] I feel that there needs to be a space where we’re touching upon all of our different facets. Not just the kind of, like, the warrior facet. That we’re gonna go and- so many of us are so are very ready to do like civil disobedience or, just sit and, and go to a protest and just be active in that way. But how are we also being active in a way that centers and, and looks inward? Because that’s definitely very important.

Maddy MADlines Clifford: Coming up into February 28th. I’m really trying to like plan ahead and figure out ways to make, to create like synergy. Like I’m, I’m trying to like figure out how to take control. Because one of the things that The Debt Collective has been very successful at doing is getting in front of the conversation about student debt in general.

[00:21:08] Like a lot of people, especially young people, are going to The Debt Collective’s Twitter or TikTok, or online to find, to get their information on student debt in general because the Department of Education is so archaic and corny. So like, they’re, they’re getting in front of the conversation. So I guess one of the ways that I’m like starting to understand as an organizer and try to hone the skill is, how do I kind of plan ahead so they can get in front of the, the conversation and, and steer that conversation more? And steer the way that we talk about things?

[00:21:45] Because I think one of the ways, things that really burns me out is when, yeah, when we’re having the same like, which happens a lot- especially when I first started was like you get the same arguments over and over and over again. A lot of them having to do with this personal responsibility rhetoric like, you signed on the dotted line, or you’re a really bad person, or you got a worthless degree, or, just…

[00:22:08] And it’s interesting cuz, and I start to look, and that’s one of where my artist’s brain comes in, is I start to look at these arguments with curiosity. Like, oh, they’re, they’re just like repeating the same thing over and over and over because this is like all that, like, a lot of folks on the right have at this point, is just kind of like this monotonous just saying the same thing over and over and over again.

So I also like to like, in, in terms of debating and like, when you’re getting a lot of negative response, sometimes that’s a good sign that you’re doing, you’re saying something that’s like making enough people uncomfortable. So, just figuring out ways to, yeah, get in front of that conversation as we lead up to February 28th. Because really, it doesn’t, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter- if Joe Biden’s student debt relief plan goes through, it’s not enough. And it’s not doing enough. And I don’t want the conversation to become, ‘okay, well that, that’s settled. Now we can move on.’ No, because we can’t move on because we need student, all federal student loan debt to be erased so that people can go, go on with their lives and actually build wealth.

[00:23:16] And also we need to work on these private student loans, so let’s just get that outta the way. And then we also need free college for all. So, I want to get in front of the conversation so that I can be able to, yeah, just change what we’re talking about in general. ‘Cause that’s what they’re doing.

[00:23:32] Like , they’re they’re having control over because they know people don’t have time to read all of the what’s been going on. They just want to know, do I get the relief? Do I not get the relief? Yeah. So just being able to help people understand what’s going on.

[00:23:48] Talia Molé: I think it’s great that you went into the conversation, but I was going to ask you because you about your, your social media presence. Because you do this re, these really great, and, and pardon my ignorance, I watch them on Instagram cause I don’t have TikTok. But you do. I think they’re TikTok for The Debt Collective. But I see them on Instagram and I love the, your, your videos. They give you information. They’re quick. And with everything that we’re talking about sometimes I find what’s really interesting, I guess I’m not the only one too, it’s the comment section, right?

You watch the video and then you’re like, oh, this is great. Let me see what other people think. And it can be depressing, really. Exactly what you were talking about. The things that people say, I don’t know, like, if they’re trolls or whatever, but just the things that people say. Some of them are not even trolls. Some people actually believe the rhetoric of the Right.

Let’s just call it. And how do you deal with that as a content creator? Because I have to say, this is one of the main reasons why I’m not on social media. I think I tried it one time. I’m probably, maybe a decade, a decade ago. Like, and that’s how long, and then I was like, oh, hell no. And then I put everything on private and I, I’m only like on Instagram type-of-thing, and I don’t even post there.

[00:25:11] So being, if I may say like the face of The Debt Collective and you’re doing these wonderful videos, how do you handle a lot of, of that?

Maddy MADlines Clifford: A lot of people struggle with that, and I actually ask myself that, like, how did you- I’ve always been kind of an audacious person. I’m sometimes I’m driven by, by the thirst for, to prove my haters wrong, (laughs). And, and to dance on the graves of my enemies. No. (laughs).

Talia Molé: [00:25:41] Oh, I like that.

Maddy MADlines Clifford: [00:25:42] as well.

[00:25:42] Sorry. No, it’s more just like, I think the biggest thing is like, as an art, one of the things I had to realize as an artist, pretty recently, it took a long time, was I actually had a, a core belief of like unworthiness and fear around being seen.

[00:26:00] Talia Molé: Mm

[00:26:01] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Because being seen is actually dangerous. Like being, being yourself, being seen, telling the truth is actually pretty dangerous because people- the kill the messenger concept is true.

[00:26:11] People oftentimes project their own demons onto you when you’re saying something that’s true. And so for me, when it came to student loan debt, luckily I took, I spent a lot of time just in community with other student debtors and, just being part of a union and, and understand like the way that that concepts are scaffolded and broken down to be really simple. Like “Alone, our debts are a burden. Together, they make us powerful.” Like that phrase helps me understand the whole thesis of like, why having a debtor’s union is so important. And it made me realize like, oh shit, I need to start talking about this. ‘Cause a shit ton of people are, are still afraid to tell their debt story, but, like, I’m not really afraid. I’m not afraid anymore. So I think I should step in front of an and lead by example.

But it’s not easy though still like- there was an instance around the same time when the, it was probably about a month or maybe a little bit less after the Joe Biden’s forgiveness plan was announced, and a local news org, NPR affiliate, reached out to me and I was part of an article about how student debt impacts like artists, I think, specifically.

And I got a barrage of like, I might have gotten like hundreds of comments about, just a worthless degree concept. And, but it, I, I really liked, actually, I started to… Again, I, first of all, I respond to a lot of that, and then I have strategies, for example, when you’re online, you want, if you’re saying something and you’re getting basically dog-piled where a bunch of people are, are disagreeing or making you feeling bad, then you need to have allies. So you need to ask folks to help in the, say things in the comments. That can be really helpful.

[00:28:00] And then also I just look at things with a sense of curiosity, like, wow, people really believe in the worthless degree concept. Why is that? Because for a long time, people used to say the worst things to me when I was growing up. People used to be like, you’re a teacher? Like ha. Or just like, people just say really harmful things and because they’re normalized, they don’t really realize how harmful they are.

[00:28:23] I guess you can trace it a lot of it back to Reagan who was a really impeccable, propaganda machine. And so this idea of like, taxpayer money shouldn’t subsidize intellectual curiosity- that still just lives on in our, in our psyches. So this idea that like intellectual curiosity is bad and then we wonder why we have such a huge, huge problem with critical thinking, the lack of critical thinking within this country.

[00:28:54] Talia Molé: Oh yeah.

[00:28:55] So that’s a roundabout way of saying, I don’t even remember what the question was. I got so…

[00:29:01] Talia Molé: No, but I actually wanted to touch really quickly on, on those points of strategies. We were talking about the vitriol that we can face when we put ourselves out there, especially, on social media.

[00:29:16] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Right.

[00:29:17] Talia Molé: And it makes sense. Just like when we are out in the open and in active, physical protests we have our allies, our community to back us up.

[00:29:32] It, it makes sense to have the same when you’re answering the comments section or you are coming face-to-face, or being curious, as you said. Sitting in curiosity with a, a lot of this, that vitriol if you choose to do it

[00:29:46] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Well, yeah I wanna use that as, like if I write an op-ed or if I, I wanna use their ideology to break it down, and break it apart. So that’s the goal.

[00:29:58] Talia Molé: Yeah. And that, and yeah, it’s actually, we can read that and collect it so that we can then obliterate it in, like you said, in op-eds or in plays or in some, some sort of artistic fashion.

[00:30:11] yeah, I wanted to, shift a little bit and, you know, speaking of civil disobedience, what are your plans for when the payments get turned back on? Or, and what are your thoughts on that? Do you really think that they’re going to be turned on again? I’m imagining the panorama now much different. There’s so many of us that have been awakened to how senseless this is, this whole thing has been the whole thing about student loan debt. And we’ve all kind of sat in our pain and in our outrage, and I genuinely feel that there’s going to be more people that are gonna be like, fuck this. No. Why would I pay? And, and hopefully act in civil disobedience. Shut out. I’m gonna be one of those.

But yeah, I’m just wondering your thoughts on that. What, how are you going to react to the turning back on of the payments, if they do? And or do you think they will be turned on?

[00:31:17] Maddy MADlines Clifford: I don’t personally believe that the Biden administration is going to lift the pause on the payments because I just think that it would not look good to be the administration that is forcing people to start paying back their student loans. But one of the things that could change that, of course, is the SCOTUS ruling. So if, for example, the Supreme Court rule in the favor of the student, debt forgiveness of the plan, then they could say, okay, well you got up, you’re up to $20K now, you need to start paying.

[00:31:53] And I think the way to really avoid people losing momentum and not caring, if the pause is lifted, is to remind people that they shouldn’t have to pay. They shouldn’t be, and, and that needs to be reiterated over and over again. And I think it’s, I think it’s sinking in, more and more every day.

[00:32:16] But I think that’s part of, like, that’s something that’s like- I feel like is my job and… It seems simple to us, like when you’ve made the decision ‘I’m never paying my loans back.’ Which I’ve made that decision. It seems simple.

But explaining it to others can still be complicated. For example, like what does it mean to strike? Well, that’s getting as close to zero monthly payments as possible. But explaining a strike to someone also means explaining what a debtor’s union is and how a debtor’s union is, is different from a traditional union and, and in what ways.

[00:32:46] I don’t think there’s a simple answer to it. But in a, in a way too, I think like the lifting the pause on, on the student loan payments could also make it more clear to those that haven’t been thinking about it. That like, hey, this is like something that you shouldn’t have to ever pay, pay back. So, Yeah, those are, that’s, those are probably the things that I’m thinking about.

[00:33:10] Like I honestly, I wasn’t even, it hasn’t even crossed my mind. Maybe because they keep putting the pause on the payment so much.

[00:33:18] Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s funny. I haven’t really thought about this payment pause. I think that this is the least amount of time I’ve spent not thinking about my debt. I think, ever since I received the burden of the debt, I’ve just always said, oh no, fuck that.

[00:33:43] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Right (laughs)

[00:33:44] Talia Molé: know, like, like once I understood, oh wait, this sphere of of reality exists, I’m in that. I’m on that. I’m going to not pay it. I’m gonna strike it whichever way. It’s always been my, my jam to tell you the truth. But, but yeah, like you right now, I’m just kind of like, oh wait, the pause. Yeah, that’s coming up, but nothing’s gonna change in my life as far as my relationship to that debt, I’ve made my decision. And quite frankly, I’m insulted if they think that I’m going to engage with that. I, it’s just, my intelligence is insulted

[00:34:20] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Right? Exactly.

[00:34:23] Talia Molé: Come on. Oh, Maddie. Is there anything that’s, upcoming. I know we talked about the, the February 28th. I don’t know if you wanna talk about that a little bit more, as far as the Day of Action or anything else that is coming up in The Debt Collective that we might wanna bring forward to our, to our listeners so they can engage?

[00:34:47] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Yeah, definitely. I think the February 28th action is, is definitely a big one. And also, one of the things I’ve been working on, which I’ve kind of mentioned before, is like writing op-eds. So an op-ed, you probably already know what that is, but for in case listeners aren’t familiar, it’s like an opinion piece.

[00:35:05] So, they can even be more effective than like your traditional news article because people really love opinions and people really love stories. So, if you’re interested in writing an op-ed, you can feel free to email me directly at maddy@debtcollective.org because I’ve, I’ve written one so far, which is I’m just like, I need to- did I write another one?

[00:35:30] Talia Molé: We’ll make sure to link it here.

[00:35:32] Maddy MADlines Clifford: I’m not sure. Yeah, so basically it takes your debt story or any angle that you have, and it connects the, the news with, with that argument that you’re making. Because the thing is people, they love hearing statistics to a certain extent, but your story is going to have the most power. And so people wanna know, like they wanna feel those like visceral feelings. Like how does it feel to- people are postponing medical treatment because they don’t wanna have to pay for it because it’s too expensive. And what does that really look like in someone’s day-to-day life? And, those are the types of stories that have got a lot of traction. So leading up to February 28th, I’m just encouraging folks to write op-eds or to pitch their op-ed idea.

[00:36:22] That’s the first step. And especially also because February is also Black History Month. So keeping that in mind, for listeners that happen to be of African descent. That can be a really great time to- you could write an op-ed, but you could also write an article about like, let’s say, economic justice, heroes of, of black history. Something like that would be amazing as well. Any way that we can get the conversation- again, like get in front of the conversation and kind of like direct where the conversation’s going is always a great thing. I’m trying to think if there’s other things. Yeah, that’s, that’s pretty much it. I think that’s what I’m thinking about for next month, and then whatever happens from there. I guess I’ll just, tap in, get in where I fit in.

[00:37:10] Talia Molé: Yeah. We’ll, we will have another update about that. Is there anything that you want to promote for yourself? Is there anything that you are doing as far as your artistry, your writing? We’ll, like I said before, we’ll make sure to link all your articles onto the episode.

[00:37:27] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Definitely. Yes. So I have a couple projects, like I have a collaborative album that I’m working on. Well, it’s actually done, and we haven’t created a release date, but look out for that. It’s gonna come out, in the next few months, hopefully. We don’t have a release date yet. Once again, and that’s actually gonna look at – the album’s called “What’s Pimping.” So it’s looking at like the concept of, or the practice of pimping and pimp culture. And what does that mean? It’s like, an intersectional feminist take. So the album is, is music. And then also we did some podcasts. We, we filmed some podcasts as well. We’re having conversations with community members and that’s specifically in Oakland. So I got the local level. So that’s like an artist, artist project that I’m working on. Yeah, that’s all I can think of at the moment.

[00:38:15] Talia Molé: That’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. So before we go, before I say goodbye to you, I always like to have this somewhat meditative little exercise I like to do with our guests. And I’m a very, I’m actually a quite utopian person. And I don’t, I always say I don’t necessarily set them as a destination, but rather a horizon that inspires me to move every day towards something beautiful, something I imagine to be that invites a better world for all of us, not just a few.

[00:38:50] And so, imagining that utopian horizon, how would you describe it? When, when it comes to debt? What would that world look like for you? That horizon look like for you?

[00:39:06] Maddy MADlines Clifford: That’s a good question. That reminds me of the Freedom Dreams. That definitely feels like a freedom dream, for sure. I think ease, for sure. Ease is like a, the feeling in my body. And like, joy, and the opportunity to be curious and like to pivot. And I think that one of the things that debt really, it doesn’t give you the ability to, to try new things out sometimes.

[00:39:37] Especially if, if the debt is, if you’re, if you’re thinking about how I’m gonna pay it back? How am I gonna pay it back? And specifically for like, women and women of color. Like being able to, I envisioned the things that I might’ve done differently. Like if I didn’t have debt, like maybe like have children or, like have my own space where I lived and, I, I see like spending time with family and, and again, these are all things I can still do, which is exciting.

And I think that debt like is, it’s definitely a form of like punishment and social control. So it’s kind of like thinking about the opposite of what it feels like to be punished. And I think what the opposite is to feel affirmed, to feel, again, the sense of ease to be thriving.

[00:40:28] I think that’s what I, what I see people doing is thriving instead of like, every penny being extracted from the poor. Being able to have the things that we need and, and feel content. Also, contentment is a big thing as well, just like feeling grateful and content. I often, I often feel and see glimmers of that when I’m in other countries.

Like I just spent, over a month in Jamaica with my dad’s side of the family and there are a lot of moments where I feel, like, okay. I have everything I need. I don’t need like anything else. And so that’s something that I wish for the people of the United States, like living in the belly of the beast. I definitely feel like there’s a sense of like always needing. So when I, when I think of what it looks like, what the utopian dream is, those are the things that come to mind. But I also see, again, I do see glimmers and like, a kind of like a little sparkle of it happening here and there. So it’s not like something that is like nowhere near where we are. And I hope that we like continue to remember that as well. Like we’re closer than we think.

[00:41:45] Talia Molé: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:47] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Closer than we think.

[00:41:48] Talia Molé: Yeah. I agree. I agree. I like that. We’re gonna, we’re gonna leave it on that note. That’s definitely a utopian dream. I can, I can also look forward to that. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with us today and just sharing about all the wonderful things that you’re doing, not just for and through The Debt Collective, but just through community and in general. It’s great to know you as a comrade and to spend time with you, even though we’re both in The Debt Collective. But I hadn’t really spent time chatting with you. So this has been wonderful. I hope you come back again soon.

[00:42:28] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Yes, thank you. And this is a great way to meet someone for the first time, so…

[00:42:32] Talia Molé: There you go. There you go.

[00:42:35] Maddy MADlines Clifford: Thank you.

[00:42:36] Shanna Bennett: If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, subscribe and share it with a friend. It really helps people discover us. Matter of Life and Debt is hosted by me, Shanna. It is produced by Shanna Bennett, Emma Klauber, and Nikki Nolan.

It is edited by Nikki Nolan and transcripts is done by Sarah Thibault. Efe Akerman created the theme music.

Visit our website www.matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen to more episodes, access transcripts, and get additional context for the subjects you just heard about. Absolutely for free the website again, www.matteroflifeanddebt.com.

Thanks again for listening.

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