Comedian, podcaster, and travel show host Jon Gabrus joins producer Emma Klauber and host Shanna Bennett to cathartically scream about student loans.
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Transcript:
[00:00:05] Shanna Bennett: Hi, I’m Shanna Bennett and you’re listening to Matter of Life and Debt. Today we have a comedian, actor, writer, travel show host, and podcaster. Is there anything he doesn’t do?
Jon Gabrus, welcome to the podcast!
[00:00:25] Jon Gabrus: Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, there’s little I won’t do, that’s for sure. I’m vaguely desperate. I’m a man of many talents or many attempts. Just to roll right into our topic, you gotta keep working because we’re all pinned as a motherfucker.
[00:00:46] Shanna Bennett: We seriously are, oh my god.
[00:00:51] Jon Gabrus: Well thank you guys for having me. Thank you.
[00:00:52] Emma Klauber: We’re so excited to have you. I don’t know if I need to reveal myself as a shithead Gabrus, but, I’ve heard you talk about your own experience with student loans for a while now, and you’re one of the first people I’ve heard publicly talk about that on a podcast or otherwise.
[00:01:09] And it was a big deal for me as someone who has six figures in student loans and gave up a career in the arts because of that. So I’ve always been super curious about creative people, how they’re able to make that work, or how they hopefully, got past it. It just was a huge deal for me to hear you talk about it and just be transparent.
[00:01:31] Jon Gabrus: I mean, obviously if people don’t listen to High and Mighty, my podcast in which fans call themselves shitheads, or I call them shitheads. I’m not sure who’s chicken or egg, but that’s what Emma’s alluding to. Less people that I know had student loans than I thought. I thought every one of my peers had student loans. But then you eventually learn about your friend’s family wealth. I’m learning about how many people, my wife and I had in particular, she had a very bad student loan situation and I had a standard “You take out just this one, Jonathan, and that’ll be your responsibility”, but between scholarships and financial aid, and Mom and Dad will pay for the rest.
[00:02:03] I’m privileged to have that. I still did not pay off my meager student loans until I was 38 years old, and that would be 16 years after graduating. And in those 16 years, I used my degree zero times.
[00:02:18] Well, this is the funny thing. My degree was in Radio, Tv, and Film. I graduated college in 2004 and it was funny that radio was in the title cause like no one was doing radio and now I’m 40 and I’m sitting here talking to you guys with headphones in a microphone, like radio is fucking back.
[00:02:35] It’s just called podcasting. But now I’m like, holy shit. I never really went anywhere. I just, I got creamed. I got creamed by student loans and I had the lowest one. It was $137 a month for 15 years. I paid $150 to try to cut it off early. And I cut it off like one year early. My wife on the other hand though, her payments were $700 a month and that prevented her from moving out of her parents house a couple years later than she wanted. Never had savings, was never able to. Even though she worked every single day from highschool college graduation, couldn’t do a 401K at the first couple of companies because needed every dollar. Because she was pinned once she moved to New York City and is paying New York City rent and you on top of it, you have a huge, predatory student loan. She took out more than she thought. Her parents were under the impression they were gonna be able to help her more. And then it just ended up being, when you hear the payment, it’s like, oh, it’s just that forever. And you’re like, oh, that doesn’t sound too bad. And then when you’re like, I gotta cut off Netflix because I gotta free up $12 a month, and you’re like, I’m paying $150 fucking a month for a degree.
[00:03:39] I’m 40, I don’t have a house. I’m 40. I don’t own a car. The computer I’m talking to you on is the most expensive thing I own. And, I don’t know when I’ll get a house and I’m on fucking television. How are other people doing this? I only was able to pay off my student loans in like a lump sum.
[00:03:56] And my wife’s in a lump sum towards the end cause I booked a TV show and hosted a game show for television. That’s not that good of money, but it’s definitely not an opportunity other people have to be like, oh cool, I got a large paycheck. And that was the only way, otherwise I would still be paying my wife’s.
[00:04:12] Like we, honestly, we would’ve benefited. We might’ve got a few knocked off at this point, but I’m not bitter about it. As everyone here on this pod has heard me yell about before. I don’t give a fuck. I’m never gonna say you didn’t check the homework just cause I did the homework. I’m not a fucking narc.
[00:04:27] Emma Klauber: Well, that’s something, I hear you say a lot too, Gabrus that I just don’t feel people publicly voicing enough, which is a) you’re not upset that you finished paying your loans and other people are getting their loans canceled and b) we sort of talked to River about this, but your whole idea of if we just all had about 10% more empathy for each other, what would that ripple effect be? And I think student loan cancellation or just caring about people who are burdened by student debt in general, if we could kind of influence that perspective on some more people.
[00:04:56] Jon Gabrus: I don’t understand the negative reaction to the student loan payment because yeah, our taxes are fucked anyway. The people who are really complaining figure out ways to not pay the full taxes. And then on top of it, if we’re talking about blue collar people, small business owners, the rural community, well, you know what, then a shit ton of college graduates or, you know, unfortunately, some people who carry student loans aren’t even college graduates.
[00:05:18] They’re not even getting the quote benefit of having a degree, just the quote unquote fucking achilles heel tendon slice of fucking, student loans. So if you’re a small business owner or you’re a rural person, you own a farm, you work on a farm, blah, blah, other people getting money is going to help that. It’s like it’s trickle up.
[00:05:35] Do we give a fuck about that angle of like, if we give a bunch of relief to 23 to 40 year olds? Unfortunately, everyone’s like, these kids, these kids. I know a plethora of 40 somethings like my brother. Like if you’ve got a master’s degree or a doctorate, you have an insane amount of student loans- if you are a doctor or a lawyer.
[00:05:52] And then doctors overcharge, like hospitals cost a fortune, it costs so much. Everything starts to feel like were just fucking ourselves over by overpaying everyone for everything. And we’re gonna go nuts about a 30 year old getting eight grand and like saving their ass for like four years?
[00:06:10] People are like, what the fuck happened? Like, If you’re not at free jersey night at the stadium, are you furious at all the people that got the free jerseys? Or are you just like, shit, should have been at the stadium? I don’t understand the energy of like, fuck you guys. I’ve never been like that.
[00:06:26] I hope life gets easier for every single person. My dad was very abused by his dad. He just lightly abused me. I will never abuse a child. We should be thriving to make everyone’s lives better.
[00:06:38] Jon Gabrus: If we can ourselves, our own selves included- sorry, now I’m screaming.
[00:06:56] Shanna Bennett: I’m glad you brought up the point about your wife not being able to contribute to her 401k, because I don’t know why we’re not more up in arms about the fact that from what, like 22 to potentially 42, we have people that would not be able to contribute to their retirement savings otherwise.
And then if we have a lot of people that are retiring without being properly financially prepared to retire, again, our tax money is gonna go to supporting these individuals.
Jon Gabrus: Everyone talks about these 401ks and we’re like, well, all you gotta do is just start young. And it’s like we’re already so pinned and the newer generations have it even harder than me. Like I moved to New York City in 2005.
[00:07:16] It was not cheap. It is way more expensive now. Food is more expensive now. Gas is, everything is more expensive now. And young people have even less jobs out there and there’s even more debt. That’s a fucking problem. We have to help people now.
[00:07:31] So that now people can afford a place to live, can afford to set aside money to eventually have retirement. When you realize that it benefits a certain percent now, this is where I’m gonna get into my obnoxious territory. But when you realize it benefits a certain tier of the citizenship, a certain layer of society, when you realize they benefit from everyone constantly working and constantly spending their money and overspending their means, when you realize there is a slice of people who truly benefit greatly from that, it starts to be like, well now these fuckers are scamming us.
[00:08:04] Now we’re being scammed. Like now it starts to feel like everyone’s standing around like I’m getting fucking pick pocketed here. Student loans, this cost a fortune. I can’t buy a house. And then there’s just one line of people who are standing around going like, oh, but we’re actually doing pretty good. And it’s like it’s time to fucking roll out the gullotines.
[00:08:24] Emma Klauber: Yeah.
[00:08:26] Jon Gabrus: Hypothetically, metaphorically. But it’s time we stopped getting mad at poor people and stopped getting mad at each other for being different in some way or a perceived slight. And we started getting mad at really rich people. Like, super rich people are who we should be mad at.
[00:08:43] I believe that when you get $999,999,999 and 99 cents, so you are just a penny below being a billionaire, I think you are not allowed to make any more money. Any dollar you go above a billion should just be immediately divided amongst the poorest employees in your company.
[00:09:00] Jon Gabrus: Like you should just not be allowed to have over $999 million. It should be enough to hold a lot of people over. And, you know even if you have to spend it like in dumb ways, it’s like, fuck, we have too much. I don’t wanna give it to the government. It’s like, well buy a bunch of hot dogs and throw ’em out in Times Square.
[00:09:14] It’s like, great, yes, perfect so at least the world is exciting and it’s not just like one lineage of some white people who have all the money in the world as the water levels rise.
[00:09:23] Shanna Bennett: Yeah.
[00:09:24] Emma Klauber: Yeah.
[00:09:26] Jon Gabrus: It’s a sci-fi dystopia we’re just living in it.
[00:09:28] Emma Klauber: Yeah.
[00:09:29] Shanna Bennett: I really like normalizing being upset about it. I like the fact that we’ve normalized accumulating a large amount of debt to go to school, and we’re all just standing next to each other, like, okay, yeah, this is normal. No, it’s not normal and we don’t have to accept it as normal. And to your point about poor people fighting with each other, you know, Nikki has talked about this time and time again about how when it comes to the poor middle class, all of a sudden now it’s a morality thing.
[00:09:52] You know why you take out so much and don’t you know any better and pay back your debt instead of acknowledging it’s not okay. The system is flawed, it’s antiquated, it’s broken. Nobody should go into debt to get an education.
[00:10:04] Jon Gabrus: The amount of people who side with banks in conversations is insane. Where you’re just on the side of the Fed. We’re talking about human beings, and you’re like, well, maybe they shouldn’t have taken out that much money. And it’s like, too late. They did help them. Well, maybe you shouldn’t have gotten a Titanic ticket. It’s sinking and we’re not gonna rescue you.
[00:10:22] It’s like, throw the guy in fucking lifesaver for fucks sake. Throw a tube. It’s infuriating. What’s the way out for people? What’s the way out? Like you just have to live with your parents until like a person you meet who is wealthy enough to own a home and wants to couple up with you in some whatever couplehood becomes in the future, it’s all gonna be like financial, you know, arrangements.
[00:10:43] We’re gonna eventually be like, nine people are gonna live in a nine bedroom house and we’re gonna live in like, communes and shit. Like that shit all starts sounding appealing. Like all of a sudden a guy whose wife just wanted a house with a pool. I’m 40, I don’t even have a house yet.
[00:10:57] I’ve never had a dishwasher. I know I choose to live a certain lifestyle and choose to live in a city. So, get off your rural high horse of like, come on out to South Dakota where you can be treated like shit everyday. People throw those out there. It’s like, I get it, I get it.
[00:11:11] I know that there are cheaper places to live, but then what do I do there? ,
[00:11:15] Like, I’m sorry, I don’t have a strong skill set. Oh, and I should have learned a trade. Fuck. I know. I’ve been saying that for 20 years in my own career. I agree people, Jesus, stop it.
[00:11:27] Emma Klauber: Well, speaking of learning a trade, when you were at the end of high school, kind of figuring out what your next move was gonna be, how did the financials of college or post-secondary education, like what was that consideration for you? How were you being advised by adults?
[00:11:41] Jon Gabrus: Emma, Emma, I talk about this also a lot. You’ve probably heard me scream about this. No one said shit to me about what it really meant financially or even, my parents, God bless ’em, they did practically put me through college, but they only were doing that because that’s what they thought I needed to do.
[00:12:00] And if my parents were really like, well, Jonathan says he wants to work in entertainment, maybe he can figure that out without going to college. But no, it’s like you have to go to college. I mean, and I’m glad I did. You know, it was four years of summer camp.
[00:12:12] Jon Gabrus: I’m glad to have done it. I don’t know how many girls I would’ve made out with in my life if I didn’t go away to college. And you know, that was integral at the age of 17. That was paramount on my list of things I needed to happen. I was not concerned with the future of my 401k or what my retirement situation or what my degree might be worth.
[00:12:30] I was just like, let’s make out, but no one was talking to me about that then. And honestly, maybe I’ve said this before too, but I was post college at a bar in New York City on a Saturday college game day. You know, college football is everywhere and it’s fun to do in New York City because people are from all over.
[00:12:46] So there’s like a ton of like, oh, you guys are Bowling Green fans? Oh shit, Boise fan. Like, you find all these like weird teams. And then there was just a game that was playing where they had the University of Hawaii, and I know everyone knows that there’s a University of Hawaii, but I knew there was too. But it just registered in that moment of like, I could have gone to college in Hawaii.
[00:13:03] And I would still be fucked with student loans. I went to a private school in New York because my mom wanted something three hours away that she could drive to and visit if need be.
[00:13:11] But I didn’t know about, like hey, you wanna work in theater and do comedy? Maybe you should go to school in New York City.
[00:13:17] Or maybe you don’t even need to go to school. But no, the guidance counselors are in on it. Those motherfuckers must be getting kickbacks from colleges. Like everything is about going to college. If you don’t get into college, you’re fucked. This, that, the other thing, it’s like no one tells you anything like, hey, honestly though, this is the kind of money a firefighter makes and this is the kind of effort you have to put in to be a firefighter.
[00:13:36] It’s like if someone just broke that down for a bunch of 17 year olds about nursing school. Hey, you can get a whole degree in this and start at this and make this like, but, I don’t know how old everyone here is and I’m not about to ask ladies, but I’m from the generation of just like, you gotta be a lawyer, engineer, doctor.
[00:13:53] Not once were my parents were like, you know what is a good job if you learn plumbing, you’ll make six figures a year and always work . And it’s like, no one talks about that because their kids have to be something special.
[00:14:06] And I’m like, I wanna be an actor. Like, no, not that kind of special. I mean just like rich and I don’t have to stress about what your life is.
[00:14:12] That’s when you realize your parents really want to set it and forget it.
[00:14:15] Emma Klauber: Well, a hundred percent. Gabrus I mean, we’re older millennials too. I’m 35. Shanna, you can share- 37.
[00:14:24] Jon Gabrus: Great. So yeah, we’re in the same wheelhouse.
[00:14:26] Emma Klauber: But when you’re in high school, Gabrus, and know that you enjoy comedy, movies, tv, all that stuff. When you’re choosing a college, you’re choosing a career and you don’t have an example of someone in your community or in your family who’s in that space.
[00:14:41] It’s really hard to get parental support obviously. And also it’s daunting to know if you commit to doing that, you’re fully taking this on without support, without knowing the pathway forward. I wanted to work in arts education, same thing. Moved to New York City and from Pennsylvania, you know, this is super foreign.
[00:15:01] I didn’t have a lot of career examples, period. I dunno if you feel this way, but I’m a little bit resentful because yeah, I could have made different choices as well. I thought I wanted to be a teacher, which just, if I think about it now, it’s just because I wasn’t presented with more creative career options.
[00:15:15] Jon Gabrus: Yeah. Where it’s like, oh, you wanna do art? It’s like, cool. So either you’re an artist or an art teacher.
[00:15:22] You’re like, there’s nothing else. And it’s like, yeah, I mean, there’s probably something else, but we don’t have the time to discuss that. It’s like, honestly at our age it’s probably like, oh girl, you should be a teacher.
[00:15:32] Boy, you should be an engineer or a lawyer. Like that felt, at least in the blue collar world of Long Island where I’m from. But there’s no examples. No one to look to and to give my parents a little bit of benefit of the doubt, no one for them to go to.
[00:15:45] Jon Gabrus: Like they’re the only ones outta their generation to have gotten enough money and jumped to the middle class to send their kids to college. So it’s like they don’t have anyone to go to. I’m the first one, you know, my mom went to college when I was 14 or whatever, 15. That’s when she went and got her degree.
[00:16:01] So I only went to college like eight years after. I was the second person in my family to go to college, and it was only like a few years after. So of course they had no fucking idea what to do. And, at the same time, they’re being duped too. They’re like, yeah, the student loans got super low interest and it’s like see son, it’s super low interest.
[00:16:18] And it’s like, yeah, but what if I don’t have money for the first five years after college? Because everyone says go to college to pay your dues. And it’s like, great, I went to college and paid my dues. Like, great. Well now you start at this super low rung because you gotta pay your dues. Okay, great.
[00:16:32] But I do need an extra $150 a month on top of all the normal human expenses or else my school will take away my possessions. It’s so fucked and then you’re pinned under that too. And then you’re like, shit. Okay. And everyone’s like, these millennials, they have their roommates and they don’t leave their parents’ house and you realize a lot of the stuff that our generation was getting roasted for was like shit that we had no choice.
[00:16:54] And then they’re like, yeah, well you spend all your money on avocado toast and ice coffee. It’s like, honestly sir, it’s cause it’s the only happiness we could fucking find. Dig those good fats and good caffeine. It’s the only thing that’s legal right now because all you fucking boomers say we can’t do shrooms now half the country can’t do weed.
[00:17:12] You gotta be 21 to buy alcohol. You can be 18 to fight for imperialism. so all the shit that we got roasted for is all shit. That was like, because of our lackluster situation, we were in.
[00:17:23] Emma Klauber: Well, a hundred percent. I mean, when I think about the jobs, I mean, I’m finally in a job that affords me a little bit of financial security. Every job before this, you know, all the terrible bosses, all the weird situations you find yourself in because you can’t push back on someone when you have to make, in particular student loan payments.
[00:17:41] Jon Gabrus: There’s a ton of other bills most people have. Yeah.
[00:17:44] And the thing that gets me the angriest, Emma, I’m sorry to jump in the middle of your story there, but I’m so worked up. The thing that makes me the angriest is that, you know, employers know that.
[00:17:53] And that’s the fucking thing that they’re using. The idea of like, well, if you don’t do this bullshit ass job at this bullshit ass rate, you’re gonna be on the fucking streets in 10 days.
[00:18:03] So do it. Right? And they know. And they know. And now, here we go, lefty high horse again. Then you can only get health insurance from your job. If you walk in and go, I’m gonna quit. They’re like, great. Well then you can’t take care of your lymphatic cancer.
[00:18:18] You know? And you’re like, okay, well then I guess I have to stay here and be a slave to my disease. Be like, I have to work as an indentured servant at fucking this company so I could pay off something, this issue that I’m dealing with. And it’s like all that shit just pins us and traps us and then benefits only the people at the top.
[00:18:35] This is all stuff everybody knows. I’m just, you know, flipping out this afternoon.
[00:18:40] Shanna Bennett: Circling back to something you said about the entry level wages. I mean, that’s also something that colleges don’t do a good job of. I mean, it’s like you get this degree and make you know, X amount. I have a master’s degree and I remember, I specifically remember looking at this pamphlet and it had the master’s degree and next to it had a six figure salary.
[00:19:00] And that’s why I picked the master’s degree. Because I was like, oh, I’ll do this and then when I graduate I’ll be able to pay off all this debt. Perfect plan. But they don’t tell you that upon graduation, that is not the amount that you make. It’s not, which just further leads people into more debt. It’s just a lack of communication.
[00:19:17]
[00:19:18] Jon Gabrus: Yeah and now, I weirdly have this, blind light on my head that really looks like the zodiac symbol or something. A sniper is about to kill me or something, but the entry level job thing brings me to one of the positives I see right now in the workforce and for young people is unionization. As someone who’s been a member of several different unions and also done a lot of work that was not covered by unions.
[00:19:39] And I know the discrepancy and the difference.
[00:19:41] Imagine you’re an 18 year old kid and you’re like, I’m not sure what I wanna do. I like ripping out espressos. I work at the local Starbucks and if I go full time, I can make, you know, 70 grand, 65 grand a year and live in this town. And, maybe I should do that for a couple years and then that’ll gimme a time.
[00:19:58] I could play the guitar on the weekends and then maybe I go to college if there are better options for people. But no one wants to pay 45 extra cents for their coffee that is custom designed for them every morning by a team of fucking experts. No one wants to pay an extra 50 cents for that, but if we did, that would be a viable job for all of your nieces and nephews.
[00:20:21] Starbucks doesn’t want a union, And is there ever a better sign that companies need to unionize? If the company is very, very against it, you gotta go like, okay, well then that means it’s very, very bad for you. Which means it’s very, very good for the company. They’ll just get better people. They won’t have to rehire, the churn will turn down.
[00:20:38] There’s so much other good stuff about unions that no one can get through because they just tell you and I understand it, they just tell you the thing you like and the thing you barely have enough room in your checking account for will go up and you may not be able to get this thing that makes you happy anymore at the rate that you did.
[00:20:55] And it’s because we’re all fucking on the precipice, like Emma, who when describing her newest job did not say, and I can save money and I can get things that I want. She just used the phrase, financial security. And if you don’t understand what it’s like to not know if you’re gonna be able to pay your bills every month, then you have no idea the fucking anxiety.
[00:21:13] No one is proud to have not paid their bills. It sucks. It fucking destroys you. You feel awful when it comes up in anxiety. Like I ate rice and beans from a place called Bonita cause it was only $2. I ate rice and beans when I was a PA at Best Week Ever, the pay was such shit.
[00:21:28] But if you stayed after 9:00, you got free food. And I would stay till 9:00 and I would work 14 hour days so I could have a free dinner. No change in my rate, and it’s like in your early twenties you can do that stuff. But what if instead I had room in time for therapy and exercise and connecting with friends and going to the MoMA because I’m living in the most expensive city in the world. You know, if I had the extra time and didn’t have to kill myself and work extra jobs in order to pay for everything that I did, if I didn’t have to do all that, would my life have been richer?
[00:22:00] Would I be better off now? Fuck. Of course. And it’s like we’re just kneecapping young people from experiencing life as best as possible. We’re leaving the world in such fucking disgusting disarray, you know, I was always told act like you’ve been there before.
[00:22:13] Leave it as it was and when you got there, and we’re just absolutely trash in the place. So we also can’t give them fucking 10 grand to help them with their student loans? We’re giving them a world on fire. We’re sitting them in a smoking section of Earth and they’re like, can I have water with lemon?
[00:22:27] And we’re like, fuck off. You don’t deserve it.
[00:22:29] Shanna Bennett: And I think too, this is gonna be strange, but I’ve been thinking a lot about the Black and brown community and the history that we have in this country, even to Native Americans and how much was taken from them. And then these are the communities that are struggling to get an education. These are the communities that are holding a lot of debt and you don’t wanna give them anything? Don’t wanna give them a leg up? You can’t clear their debt after all you’ve taken from their ancestors?
[00:22:56] Jon Gabrus: I should have an asterisks next to all my complaints, that I do benefit from white privilege and my parents both having union jobs when I was growing up. I was lucky and it was hard. I’m that lucky, I’m on television and it was hard for me.
[00:23:09] So God help anyone who doesn’t look like me, doesn’t have the benefit, I didn’t even have that supportive of a family. And there are people who have less supportive families, you know what I mean? Like shit is hard out there. I’m venturing into territory I don’t know much about.
[00:23:21] But we owe it to a lot of people. We meaning colonial United States. We owe it to a lot of people, like generations of people. We owe some apologies too, so. Shut the fuck up about buying this round. You owe hundreds of rounds of beer, but you best not bitch about this one. Just pay for the fucking student loans and shut up.
[00:23:40] Cause we owe way more to way more people. and that’s only including American citizens- that we owe people outside of this country. We owe people in Central and South America and the Caribbean. The shit we’ve done to places is fucked up.
[00:23:56] It’s the least we could do is fucking pay for a generation to potentially not end up underwater or unhoused. Like, fuck, help. How hard could it be to wipe it all out? We’re learning money is fucking fake. If instead of kids who went to college, they were fucking executives who made cars, we would just throw money to them, be like, we could never put them underwater.
[00:24:13] I mean, there are eight rich white guys from Detroit. Like we could never do that to them. But as for millions of young people who, if God forbid anything really needs to happen in this country, we will be the ones that have to answer the call to do it. If shit hits the fan in this country.
[00:24:26] They’re not sending 40 year old podcasters to put sandbags in Florida and keep it attached to America. They’re sending young people. So like the least we could do is help them. They’re going to be the ones walking into the fire since we can’t afford to have kids and we can’t afford to even have partners.
[00:24:42] So I’m a 40 year old childless adult. When I’m in hospice, I will have no one to keep track of me, no one to bring me fucking magazines. Young people are gonna have it even fucking worse. Throw them fucking 10 Gs for Christ’s sake. I don’t give a fuck if you went to the liberal arts college and studied the dumbest fucking thing. Thank you so much. Here’s 10 grand. Go live your life and study the power of animal cinema for life. Like, I don’t give a fuck.
[00:25:06] We’re so condescending about people who choose weird things to study.
[00:25:09] Everyone’s gotta get off their fucking high horse about everything. And here I am, the whole time shouting-
[00:25:15] Shanna Bennett: So how, how did it feel when you were able to pay off your debt and your wife’s debt so that Emma and I can live vicariously?
[00:25:23] How did that feel and how did it change your life or your perspective?
[00:25:26] Jon Gabrus: I’ll tell you what, there was a little bit of resentment because as I said, my wife had a way more predatory student loan. But a couple years before we got married, which was 10 years ago at this point, we joined our finances because it was the only way- because we had to again, it all goes back to health insurance.
[00:25:42] We benefited from the queer community pushing for domestic partnership. And we as a cis-het couple took advantage of that and we’re domestic partners. And I got health insurance, so we had a joint checking account. So for about 15, 16 years I’ve been paying, we’re splitting money, like we’re both working.
[00:25:58] But her student loans were mine, mine were hers as well. Hers were just, you know, five times as much as mine were. Then there’s like a light resentment where I’m like, I finally make all this money on a TV show. You get paid like five figures an episode, you do eight episodes, and it just all evaporates.
[00:26:16] And I’m so thankful that we lost those payments over our heads, but at the same time I was like, that’s not even a downpayment on a house, but it’s steps towards it. And I’m just watching it go like, well, a chance at potentially getting a house or not being stressed about student loans anymore. And it felt like the right move at the time.
[00:26:33] Brutal though.
[00:26:34] It does feel free though. It does feel good.
[00:26:36] And I wish I was smart enough or savvy enough to just be like, the second I stopped paying mine and my wife’s loans is to just keep paying that same exact amount to myself. I wish I would’ve been like, you’re adjusted to spending $800 a month on student loans. Just keep doing that. Just keep doing it forever and then that’s like your $800 a month in savings. I started that up again a couple years ago after like a few years of loving the $150 not being withdrawn on the 17th of every month and on the fourth of every month, the $677 from Tiffany.
[00:27:06] So once that was gone, I was just like, ooh, now I gotta start putting $800 a month away and live back like we’re paying student loans again. So we’re pretending we have student loans in order to hopefully have some money when the world crumbles or whatever because we don’t have retirement accounts yet.
[00:27:22] Emma Klauber: I’m curious too, I mean, it was always hard for me when I worked in the theater in New York, which, you know, if you don’t come from a privileged background, you get weeded out after a couple years, or you can’t enter that space at all.
[00:27:36] So like, what is it like for you with peers? What was it like, you know, 10 years ago or even now when someone doesn’t have the experience of a student loan?
[00:27:44] Jon Gabrus: Yeah, I was definitely bitter back in the day coming up around UCB in the comedy community, in the theater community in the mid 2000s. It was very apparent like people who didn’t even have to work.
[00:27:57] Not only not have student loans and stuff, but when I was a PA, temp, a waiter, a bartender.
[00:28:02] I’m dressing up as fucking Benjamin Franklin for the UPenn 200 year anniversary for a hundred dollars. I’m doing humiliating things, truly, like I did construction for a summer in Red Hook, and that is not something I’m built for.
[00:28:15] I’ve done everything to keep the lights on. I had friends who, just peers who just didn’t have to, and I had such resentment towards them and it was so odd.
[00:28:22] And then, believe it or not, somehow, maybe it’s coincidental or maybe it’s because they’re not stressed about money all the time and have the free time- they were the first ones to succeed too. Weirdly enough, they were the first ones to make it. And then that’s when I got extraordinarily bitter. And then you just have to get over it and you know, you have to just be like, well, I taught myself a work ethic. Yeah. Finally I found a positive perspective in my fucking shitty twenties. But, that was certainly going around. So like I live in LA now, you go to each other’s homes and apartments way more in LA cause you’re like, oh, come over in New York City, you rarely go to someone else’s place.
[00:28:55] That’s a thing that doesn’t happen in your early twenties. You always meet at bars. But at UCB, every once in a while you’d go back. I was in a monogamous relationship. The way this sounds, every once in a while you go back to someone’s apartment. Every once in a while there’s like a reason you’re at somebody else’s apartment.
[00:29:08] And when you’re there and you’re like wait, you don’t work and you live on the Upper East Side? Okay, wait a minute, what’s going on here? And it’s like, oh, your parents also live in this building? Oh, they got you your own apartment. Oh, cool, cool. Yeah. No , no. My mom and dad don’t even know where my apartment in Brooklyn is, and they live in Long Island.
[00:29:29] And it was just like one of those things where you’re like, oh fuck. So many people were just not in the same place. And so many people were way worse off to me. And I’ll even say selection bias. I’m talking about UCB, which has in the mid 2000s, you had to be privileged to do it.
[00:29:43] It was like unpaid. You had to be privileged slash willing to not make money at night, which was such a fucking complex time. And I was one of the lucky ones and I felt like shit. So God bless everyone else.
[00:29:54] Shanna Bennett: What are your thoughts on the amount that Biden’s doing, like the 10K? The 20K? I mean, I keep saying this, but I don’t know where those numbers came from.
[00:30:02] Jon Gabrus: It feels so dumb. I personally have two close friends in my life, who are both younger than me, both have student loans. And I was texting with them. I’m like, hey, make sure you do your thing and get this money. It’s your money. And one of them can’t because his household income is over a certain amount.
[00:30:17] And the other one is like, I don’t know if I have the time. I’m moving right now. And I’m like, okay- dude who is moving – figure it out. You’re leaving 10 grand on the table that can knock years of payments off. I understand it sucks to give money to rich people or quote unquote rich people. But the other guy is a father of two and 10 grand towards his student loans would help multiple people in his own family, you know?
[00:30:40] Emma Klauber: We’re really upset about the means testing portion and I was worried that, and again, I would never have said this before the year 2022, but I was worried that I wouldn’t qualify because I was not making this much last year. But, it’s ridiculous, right? Because I was always told Gabrus, as I was changing jobs, the only solution I had for my student loans was to make more money.
[00:31:03] There was nothing else. So I’ve been out here trying to make more money and then you do. And it’s like, oh, well you don’t need help.
[00:31:14] Shanna Bennett: But anyone who has a student loan in the first place needs help.
[00:31:14] Jon Gabrus: Also $125,000 in, Cleveland, Ohio versus New York City versus rural Montana versus Miami. There are people who are servers in New York City who can make six figures. Because the business is there and it’s not a special, cush job.
[00:31:30] It’s a hard fucking job. These people work fucking hard and they make six figures and they don’t get their student loans paid for and you’re right, I didn’t even know the phrase means testing until the last couple years and it’s one of the most infuriating things but no one means tested the fucking PPP loans. And I have several friends. Several people I know have done stuff that amounts to fraud, but it was sort of like fraud was allowed during PPP in some capacity. That wasn’t means-tested at all. I know so many people.
[00:31:59] I am a corporation. I am a small business. I am an S corp myself. I’m the CEO and only employee of my business. I could have benefited from all that. And I’ll tell you what, even on the most basic level, the amount of money I’m able to take home when I was just John Gabrus versus this corporation represented by John Gabrus, you get immediate benefits where you immediately learn that corporations are treated better than people in this case.
[00:32:24] Jon Gabrus: You immediately understand it when you become a corporation. If you could prove and I do enough business, God bless, that I’m a corporation. And the second I get all those benefits, I’m like, thank God I’m getting them. But this seems unfair. I had to become a corporation to be protected better.
[00:32:40] That’s wrong. That is fucking wrong.
[00:32:42] Shanna Bennett: It’s wild.
[00:32:43] Jon Gabrus: Well, so everyone who works in politics is rich or has not been stressed about money we all sweat AOC because she was a bartender and to me I’m just like, that’s the most normal thing I could ever imagine someone in politics doing.
[00:32:55] And God bless. We need more people who used to wait tables, who used to coach little league, who used to be teachers. We need those people in politics, but they can’t do it because they’re fucking underwater the only people who can do politics are the same kids who fucking were booking commercials right away because they had days free to go to every dumb audition because their mom and dad paid for their East Village apartment
[00:33:16] Emma Klauber: I remember on AOC’s Instagram she once broke down how she pays for an apartment in DC and New York City. So yeah, you have to already have money to maintain it. It’s just wild.
[00:33:27] Jon Gabrus: And then you have to like to go to shit that has nothing to do with politics, to get more money so that you can keep doing politics. And then it starts to be like, so you don’t have to do politics to get to do politics again.
[00:33:39] You just have to get money to get to do politics again. So when you get hired to do politics, instead of doing politics, you decide to get money and that just lets you keep quote unquote doing politics without quote unquote doing politics.
[00:33:51] What other fucking job works that way? I mean acting, I guess where once you get the job it starts paying a lot and you start working less. Entertainment is just as fucked up as politics. It’s safe to say.
[00:34:03] Shanna Bennett: I was gonna say they’re supposed to be public servants, but I think it gets to be really interesting when they can’t relate to the life that we’re living. And I think we’ve looked at Congress numerous times and taken a look at who in Congress actually has experience with student loan debt. And there are very few people.
[00:34:20] So now you are, you know, putting together legislation, you’re writing policy on something that you have zero experience with. So when we’re telling you that the average person, the average monthly payment is like $399 dollars a month, almost $400 a month to some of these folks, that’s nothing but people like me and you. That’s groceries, that’s a car payment.
[00:34:40] Jon Gabrus: Yes, that is my car payment. Yeah, that’s fucking brutal. I drive a station wagon, and that’s my car payment. Dude, imagine how all the people in Congress and in the Senate, imagine how they view health insurance. They’ve just had great health insurance since they got a job in Washington, DC. It’s never really been an issue for them.
[00:34:58] I didn’t have health insurance until I was 28. I couldn’t afford it and I could only afford it once I was a domestic partner. Then we got married, then she has a corporate job. So we’re on her corporate health insurance. That’s great. She gets laid off over the pandemic. We lose corporate health insurance.
[00:35:12] We jump to my union health insurance, which is good, but not as good as it used to be because it’s been cut a little bit for financial reasons. And so now I’m on my union health insurance. But in order to get my union health insurance in 2023, I need to make X amount of dollars in my union under SAG productions.
[00:35:31] It’s been a pandemic and my career is not that great. Like even when you’re in SAG, some shows don’t pay SAG, podcasting isn’t union covered. So now even though my wife and I both make good money, we’re now gonna have to be on a lesser health insurance. And she’s a diabetic and I have high blood pressure because we’re 40 and have been grinding ourselves down to the bone for capitalism.
[00:35:50] And now we’re gonna need health insurance. If I don’t get it through the union, if I don’t miraculously get a few more gigs by the end of the year, we’re gonna be paying out of pocket like a thousand dollars a month. The cost of my wife’s insulin has replaced student loans in our finances. It’s several hundred dollars a month now.
[00:36:05] My wife got a new, and I hate using her like a fucking prop- like I’m some politician of like, my gay son made me wanna love gay people or whatever, you know. But having a wife who’s diabetic, it’s a constantly monitored thing. It’s a thing that you need constant medication for and you can live with it forever if it’s taken care of.
[00:36:21] And in order to take care of it, you have to go get shit every month, whether it’s needles to check this, and everything is covered differently by different health insurance. So when we were on her health insurance, she was better able to take care of her diabetes. She was able to get these glucometers that stayed in all the time.
[00:36:36] And now on my health insurance, those glucometers come out to $200 every two weeks. And that’s if one doesn’t fall off or break before, so it’s between four and $800 a month now for her to wear the thing that works better. So what do we have to do? Choose the thing that works worse.
[00:36:51] She has to take worse care of her diabetes because we cannot afford the good medicine that we got adjusted to on the other.
[00:36:58] So I have SAG health insurance, that’s what you would think is the top. That’s what Fran Drescher has as the president of SAG. Brad Pitt and I have the same health insurance and mine sucks. And his probably sucks too. Probably out of pocket hits Brad a little less than it hits me.
[00:37:15] Hi Brad, I know you’re listening. I hope you’re listening. Okay. I have to go. I’m lightheaded from horniness thinking about Brad Pitt. This happens too frequently.
[00:37:26] Emma Klauber: Are you thinking about that roof scene in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood?
[00:37:30] Jon Gabrus: Yeah, I’m almost always thinking about that roof scene. When I’m not thinking about that roof scene, I’m angry about health insurance and, uh, student loans-
[00:37:40] Emma Klauber: Yeah.
[00:37:40] Shanna Bennett: I was gonna say, I have a lot of diabetic family members that live in Canada, and it just seems like a completely different experience. I remember my grandmother, she’d come over like once a summer and spend a couple weeks with us, and every time she would come, I felt like she would have a new piece of technology that was helping her with her diabetes.
[00:37:57] And I would say, Grandma, how do you have this? Is this expensive? And she’s like, ah, you know. My father who listens to our podcast religiously- Hi Pops- he had kidney surgery and so watching them go through these processes and no one’s like talking about how much it’s costing.
[00:38:18] No one’s stressing about it. Just kind of going through this process and being taken care of. I’m like, oh, wow. Okay. That’s what that could be like.
[00:38:24] Jon Gabrus: And also like without getting into it too much, there’s probably, if we put the fucking pedal to the metal, we could probably cure diabetes. But people are making a lot of money off insulin and glucose meters and needles and all these refillables that they need, and that’s when, like if you’ve ever worked .
[00:38:40] In an office or for a business, or in my case, like a production. And you realize how much billing is happening at the high level where you don’t even know where the money’s going. It’s like Warner Brothers is paying Discovery, Discovery pays Warner Brothers and of course we book the flights, we book the flights for the corporate account executives are flying first class, they’re expending all this, and I feel like that same shit’s happening with health insurance.
[00:39:00] It’s like hospitals, doctors, insulin providers, like all these things, the money is just flying around on the top. And for a while it was just kind of like my insurance covers it and they were all just billing the fuck out of each other. But now it’s starting to land on people and we’re like, wait a minute.
[00:39:13] Why does it cost me $500 a month if I have health insurance? Then all of a sudden, well, what the fuck are you guys doing up here? Because doctors are driving Mercedes. Everyone that works in pharma is wealthy. The money is there.
[00:39:23] You motherfuckers. We know we’re coming for you
[00:39:26] There are full buildings, there are full skyscrapers in New York City where people, making a minimum of a hundred grand each, some of them making well over half a million dollars each to come up with ads for medicine.
[00:39:37] If medicine companies are willing to pay that much to get ads written for them, that’s the level of Progressive and fucking Chevrolet. That means they’re making money hand over fist. They’re seeing a return on those commercials.
[00:39:49] So now it’s time to start being like, why the fuck does it cost so much?
[00:39:53] You’re overcharging us now. If you were able to make that much money, knock $10 off insulin and let grandma shoot up and live another week.
[00:40:01] Shanna Bennett: Seriously, but that’s why there’s no incentive to improve those systems. It’s the same thing with student loans. Like Biden could do so much more. He should be restructuring the whole system. He should be holding universities accountable for how much they’re charging us. He could be holding the bankers accountable for what they’ve done in terms of predatory lending. They’re not doing that.
[00:40:20] Jon Gabrus: If there were 50 30 year olds working in politics, they would be able to. But all these people aren’t even gonna be around on Earth. A majority of politicians that are running the country right now are not gonna be on earth in 30 years. A large swath of them are not gonna be here.
[00:40:34] A large swath of them will not even consider student loans or, they have not done their own taxes or taken cash out of an ATM themselves and these are the people running the country. It’s like, we just need to get a bunch of 30 somethings in politics. So they’re like, hey, just 10 years ago I was fucking sweating my dick off as an English teacher and we had no air conditioning.
[00:40:54] So let’s fucking figure this out. And don’t even get me started on teachers. And it’s not just because my family are teachers and nurses, but those are the two professions that should be paid the most. And everyone should want to be a teacher and a nurse. And then everyone will like their teachers and their nurses and God help us.
[00:41:09] How great of a world will that be? Anyone who doesn’t wanna pay teachers more. I don’t even have kids. I have no intention of having kids, but better teachers is good for the world and giving more money to teachers is good for the economy. So let’s just fucking do that. The teacher should be a job that everyone is like, fuck I’m gonna go to college.
[00:41:28] I’m gonna become a teacher now. No one even wants to be teachers anymore. It doesn’t pay enough. People don’t wanna be doctors because it’s too hard and too expensive to become one. We do need doctors and teachers. Those two professions need to exist.
[00:41:40] It’s not like podcasting. That can go away and the world spins, but fucking doctors and teachers need to be around. We need them to stay. We need more people to choose to be doctors and not just people who are then pinned by their student loans and will only work on like super rich capacities that everyone wants to be fucking Dr. Pimple Popper. No one wants to be the podiatrist for the unhoused community. You know what I mean? We need people that aren’t in it for the money.
[00:42:02] I know teachers who switch to becoming vice principals, even though they don’t want to because they need more money. And admin pays more than teaching, just like being a development exec pays more than writing a movie. You know, just like that dumb thing of like the person who tells you how to do your job that you’re very good at gets paid more than you classic bullshit.
[00:42:18] Shanna Bennett: Every time I see one of those reports that shows in X amount of years, you know, Gen Z is gonna be like the largest group, I get excited whether it’s Gen Z or millennials or whatever it’s cause I’m like, oh, wonder what things will be like then.
[00:42:32] I wonder how that group will be able to influence politics once these other folks kind of move along. Because it’ll be really interesting,
[00:42:39] Jon Gabrus: Yeah, I feel like at minimum, young people, we’re not as beholden to tradition because tradition was kind of shattered for us. And also like tradition in the classic American heteronormative Christian way is not for our generations.
[00:42:55] A lot of people choose not to have kids. A lot of people choose not to get married. A lot of people choose to be in open marriages, polyamory, like all these things that are shattering tradition. We’re not sucking at the teet to tradition, like generations were before us. So we don’t have to keep the tradition that senators always could have individual stocks and it’s like, no, we can change that.
[00:43:14] We’re not beholden to old tradition. We’re not beholden to like, this is how it’s supposed to be. Young people at minimum. And there will be young people with bad opinions and bad ideas and bad policies. There will be young people that bring that shit.
[00:43:28] There’s always gonna be, but I think in general, at least young people aren’t around for the malaise we’re sniffing shit out. I think also we live in a post information age where we know we can find out more info about stuff. We know about Supreme Court cases as they close and shit like that.
[00:43:44] I think that’s gonna help young people when Gen Z’s all up in arms, it’s like, hey, we’re not doing it like this anymore. It’s like, but this is how we’ve always done it. It’s like, yeah but that shit is dead Pops. The old America’s gone, dog.
[00:43:59] Jon Gabrus: But, at the same time, it’s like we, we’ve just chosen to live our lives a little differently. I don’t want a fucking house anymore. I’ve come around to be like, I guess I’m never getting one because the home I want, I can’t afford and I don’t wanna pay $2.2 million for a house.
[00:44:15] I don’t want to, I’d rather pay for this overpriced apartment. I’d rather pay this decent deal forever and live in a fucking apartment in into my fifties. I’d rather do that than like, have a house, have a mortgage. If I get a mortgage then I have to start saying yes to stuff I don’t necessarily wanna do and I’m lucky, like for the first time in my life, like not every decision has to be money has to be at the forefront of my mind. Like the amount of people in our lives who say like, well, when I retire, I’ll do that. It’s only now that I hear people around my age. I’m 40, I have friends that are older. Only now am I hearing people going like, I’m not working past 65. I’ll figure out how to live. It’s the only way in most fields. Like you have to absolutely bust your ass for the chunk of time that you’re hired, whether it’s 40 years or 20 years, so that you can finally just relax.
[00:45:01] But we know people die. My dad died before he got to retire. He saved so much excitement for retirement. He’s like, when I retire, we’re gonna do this. When I retire, I’m gonna finally read all these books that are on my bookshelf. And then he fucking dies 10 years before he gets a chance to retire.
[00:45:13] And what if you die four months after you get a chance to retire? That shit all sucks, man. The previous generations, they found their identity in work and that’s amazing. At least in my second generation immigrant families, third generation, they found it in work. It’s not there for us.
[00:45:28] Our validation is not in like, luckily I work in an artistic job, but like, you used to be able to, like, I built a house or I installed this toilet. Now it’s like I gave up a portion of my lifeblood so that this corporation’s shareholders can have an extra penny each, you know what I mean?
[00:45:43] The vibes are not the same as they once were. You would hear about old jobs, back in the day they would have field picnics for the families of the factory workers and everyone would hang. that has been immediately canceled. That is until we realize that it costs $12 extra. You may bring home one hot dog for your child or whatever. All that shit is gone. Employers don’t have to treat their employees well because the job market’s so desperate that there’s no competition.
[00:46:05] When I was coming up when the market was a little better, when I was younger, you would hear like, oh, do you wanna work at Google? They have a gym, a boxing ring, and tennis courts. Nike has this, all these major corporations have all this cool shit.
[00:46:17] But later learned that it’s just to keep you at work on campus.
[00:46:20] Like, oh, coffee at work. It’s like, yeah, so you can’t go outside for 20 minutes. Like, uh oh, okay. Why would anyone not try to take advantage of their job if they’re not tied into the revenue share or tied into something with some visible upward mobility,
[00:46:33] Ah, what am I even complaining about? I’m like all over the place. And anyone listening is just like, this dude sits and talks about action movies once a week and makes more than a teacher does and bitches about it. What a dick.
[00:46:44] Shanna Bennett: No, I love it. Cause it’s, it’s bringing things up. You’re reminding me that, somewhere during freshman year of college, I just felt like I wasn’t fitting in, I was in a living-learning community of all business majors at the University of Pittsburgh. And I just wasn’t meshing, it just wasn’t making sense to me.
[00:46:59] And so one of the breaks, I think it was like summer, maybe I go to my mom and I go, so I wanna be an actor. I made the mistake of telling my Caribbean immigrant mother school, when I tell you she looks at me and she goes, have you ever been in anything? Are you taking acting classes? Is it a hobby? Have you tried this out? What about the community theater? Are you in the community theater? She was like not having it. She was like, here all the times that you, you’ve never expressed this interest before. You know what I mean? I think her concern was, how are you gonna make any money? How are you gonna support yourself? What are you gonna do? Which I totally get.
[00:47:40] And so I was thinking about what you said, like, what if, like, what if in our early twenties we were actually able to explore other interests?
[00:47:46] And then something else you reminded me of is that I think as a junior in college, I went to my advisor at the very same time. I think I was doing Psychology and Spanish, but I wasn’t really a hundred percent sold on it. And I took a neuroscience class and I loved it. And I go to him and I’m like, I love this.
[00:48:02] Can I just study this for a while? And he’s like, listen, you’re a junior now. You know, you’re coming up to graduation. You’ve got one more year. Let’s not rock the boat right now.
[00:48:13] Jon Gabrus: God forbid you stay for another semester and you get more student loans, God forbid, like, welcome to academia. Hey, I wanna learn more. Honestly, we should just get you outta here and into the worst and start fucking draining you for your ideas, your passion, and your spirit.
[00:48:27] Shanna Bennett: Seriously. Anything else to add? Do you wanna, promote anything? You got anything going on? Anything interesting?
[00:48:33] Jon Gabrus: Yeah, I just hosted a TV show called 101 Places to Party Before You Die. If you have a cable login, you can watch it on Trutv. If you have your parents login, you can watch it on trutv.com. You can buy a season on Amazon and iTunes. And I think, I don’t know when this episode comes out, but we’re hoping to get it out on streaming for free, so we will know soon enough. Keep your eyes peeled. Search for 101 Places to Party Before You Die. Because here’s the thing in modern Hollywood, I’m the marketing division for an entire major corporation that is merging in a billion dollar deal that is negatively affecting my small little dream project. That is my entire life’s work put into this show. And, it’s suffering on behalf of anyone who has stock in Discovery and Discovery stock is even plummeting. but it’s coming back now because 101 Places to Party, let’s get a second season. So that, I can fucking buy a dishwasher. Come on fam. Help me out here,
[00:49:26] Emma Klauber: Should we plug The Sweetzer Life on Instagram?
[00:49:28] Jon Gabrus: Yeah, let’s plug, check out The Sweetzer Life on Instagram. One word, t h e s w e e t z e r l i f e. That’s my wife’s business on Instagram. You can see all her amazing fucking, floral arrangements. She’s insanely insane and insanely talented. Love her. Scared to death of her. Been with her for 20 years.
[00:49:46] Shanna Bennett: Well, thank you so much for your time. This is amazing. I think we said this last time, but it’s really nice to have this outlet and to be able to actually yell and sweat.
[00:50:10] Jon Gabrus: Oh, thank you guys. I appreciate it. This was a blast. Have a good one.
[00:50:13] Shanna Bennett: If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, subscribe and share it with a friend. It really helps people discover us. Matter of Life and Debt is hosted by me, Shanna. It is produced by Shanna Bennett, Emma Klauber, and Nikki Nolan.
It is edited by Nikki Nolan and Talia Molé, transcripts and writing is done by Emma Klauber. Efe Akerman created the theme music.
Visit our website www.matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen to more episodes, access transcripts, and get additional context for the subjects you just heard about. Absolutely for free the website again, www.matteroflifeanddebt.com.
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