This week Shanna chats with the team from Debtless, a nonprofit organization that seeks to uplift the communities in need and create a debt cancellation structure that provides much-needed financial relief to people across the United States. Tina and Corei share their personal experiences with student debt and their journey to learning more about the insidious and predatory debt industry.
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Transcript:
[00:00:05] Shannon Bennett: Hi, I’m Shannon Bennett and I’m with Tina Tang and Corei Flowers of Debtless. You’re listening to Matter of Life and Debt. Welcome to the podcast!
[00:00:20] Hey everyone! Hi, there you are. Hi!
[00:00:26] So I was thinking before this interview about how we met each other or how we even came to know each other, was it through Instagram? It was Instagram, right?
[00:00:36] Tina Tang: Yeah, I DMed you on Instagram. That was when the Debtless Instagram was getting started. It was right before I think Corei came on board with us, but I DMed you and then you sent me your email. And I was like, great! I love her. I’m gonna email this girl.
[00:00:49] Shannon Bennett: Me too!
[00:00:49] Tina Tang: We moved the conversation there and I think it’s been great.
[00:00:52] Shannon Bennett: I know. I know. And so we did some work on Instagram together, and I am so obsessed with what you’re doing that I thought we need to actually sit down, get you on the podcast. And actually after we worked together on Instagram, Nikki saw what we did and she was like, “so we’re getting these ladies on the podcast”.
[00:01:09] So I’m so happy to have you here. Let’s dive in because what you’re doing is so remarkable. I only knew a little bit about this concept from bumping into something that the Debt Collective was doing a couple years back with their Rolling Jubilee. But let’s start with what is Debtless and what are you guys up to?
[00:01:29] Tina Tang: Yeah, absolutely. Our mission is debt cancellation. Myself and my co-founder were college students at the time when we first had this idea for Debtless. We did not have an idea for a nonprofit at the time.
[00:01:40] We actually saw a John Oliver episode one Sunday. There was an episode where he canceled, I believe it was $15 million of medical debt on air. I think at the time he donated it to an organization called RP medical debt. And we remember seeing that and going what a cool TV gimmick.
[00:01:58] That’s not real. We all had debt at that time. Both of us were struggling with debt, but we were like how cool, how fake, how not gonna ever happen to us. But a great thing for John Oliver to be doing. What if this is a sustainable thing we can do?
[00:02:10] What if this is actually a tool to help people get out of debt and have it not live in an episode of Sunday night TV? So we started doing a lot of digging into what were the things that made it possible for him to do that in order to cancel debt. Why was it so easy for an individual to just do that?
[00:02:25] Can we do that? So I really did a lot of digging and then learned just how predatory the industry was. I think that was really our first foray into truly how predatory this industry is for consumers, for individuals, especially for people of color. We both had individual experiences with debt, so we knew debt was predatory because of our individual experiences.
[00:02:47] My co-founder, the whole time we knew each other in college, I saw him get just hounded by predatory debt collectors because he was his mom’s power of attorney and his mother was sick. His mother had a lot of medical debt and student loans, and they were basically calling him to get money outta him, to pay off her debt, to a point where they were harassing her so much, actually at one point, they had to just take away her phone.
[00:03:10] She couldn’t have a phone anymore, because it was giving her so much paranoia to just even see a phone because that meant a debt collector was coming after her. That was his experience. My own experience with debt is that I financed a bunch of my college through credit cards because that was my way to live.
[00:03:26] I can’t believe any company would give an 18 year old that much credit, but, that’s the whole point right now. They have a hold on you for the rest of your life because you’re trying to pay off this balance. So, we’ve both had so much experience with predatory lending, but then just really learning more and realizing that.
[00:03:43] Some of the interest rates we were struggling with, other people were struggling with it so much more. We found out that in some parts of the country, like Texas, payday loans have interest rates over 600%. Isn’t that wild!
[00:03:52] How is that a legal thing to do, but that is absolutely a legal thing to do.
[00:03:56] We also found out that debt collectors were straight up just lying to debtors. That they’re calling, harassing them, lying to them, intimidating them. That was something that was happening to us. That was something that was happening to people everywhere.
[00:04:10] And that really motivated us to do something about this. Let’s see what we can actually do about it. Why can’t we replicate what they did, except we won’t just do it one time. We’re gonna make this into a nonprofit. We’re gonna do this continuously. Really show and demonstrate to the world.
[00:04:24] Shannon Bennett: What a messed up system.
[00:04:26] Tina Tang: I know.
Shannon Bennett: Our Debt Collective friends were involved with that John Oliver episode. I think the John Oliver team reached out to them.
[00:04:35] Tina Tang: Yeah.
[00:04:35] Shannon Bennett: And was asking them about the Rolling Jubilee. So it’s so interesting how that all plays into what you’re doing now. So did you start the company?
[00:04:43] Tina Tang: Yeah. so I think that episode first came out in 2016 or 2015.
[00:04:47] But for us, actually, we did not start trying to figure out how to actually put this together until 2019. So in 2019, we were in Chicago and the Chicago’s Lawyers Committee here had a small business/nonprofit program where basically, if you applied and you were accepted, they provided pro bono lawyers to help you incorporate your business.
[00:05:11] Because we didn’t have the funds in order to do that. Didn’t know how to do that. I studied neuroscience in college. I did grad school for neuroscience. This is completely so left field for what I do. So that was really a big first break for us, to be able to have legal help in how to incorporate as a nonprofit, we knew that we needed to be a nonprofit in order to cancel debt because, if we were to cancel debt as an individual or as a for profit business, they owed taxes on the debt that was just canceled.
[00:05:41] So we had to be a nonprofit in order to cancel debt. That was really important for us to do, but we didn’t have the means to do that until this big break. I still remember the first time. And it was the fanciest building I’d ever been in.
[00:05:57] I walked in and I was like, I don’t belong here. But truly that was our first big break in getting us started and off the ground.
[00:06:03] Shannon Bennett: Wow. Thank you for sharing that with us. It’s really unfortunate. I didn’t know how bad the interest rates were on payday loans until I started following your page where you’ve posted things like 300%, 600%. It’s so unfortunate. How much debt have you paid off?
[00:06:17] Cause I remember talking to you guys about that last time we talked.
[00:06:20] Corei Flowers: Yeah. So, Debtless has canceled almost $10 million in debt, for almost 10,000 individuals. Since debt collectors are able to purchase debt portfolios online for pennies on the dollar, which is what John Oliver used in his segment.
[00:06:34] We used the same tactics as those debt collectors in order to purchase that debt and pay it off. We almost lucked out from the predatory system, because instead of buying those portfolios in order to harass people into paying back their debt, Tina had the genius idea to just buy the portfolios and cancel it.
[00:06:53] That is such an amazing aspect of Debtless and what we do, because we don’t actually have to raise $10 million in order to cancel $10 million in debt. It makes my job a lot easier. I mean, not that it’s easy, like Tina said earlier, we are straight hustling so that we can pay back all this debt or pay off all this debt.
[00:07:15] But it really puts things into perspective. And it really changed my mind about how I look at the debt industry and a world that is debt free is a lot more possible than people might think, because it doesn’t take $10 million to cancel $10 million. It really makes it more tangible and more believable that a debt free future is something we can achieve.
[00:07:37] Shannon Bennett: Right. And thank you for framing that too. I don’t know if we talked about that, but that’s what Debtless is doing. Right? Debtless is buying debt on the secondary market for pennies on the dollar, and then discharging that debt. I know in speaking with you, we talked a little bit about, and this is kind of off topic, but about that marketplace.
[00:07:50] So how do you do this? And is it an auctioneer? Is someone just auctioning off Excel sheets of information? How does this work?
[00:07:57] Tina Tang: Yeah. I mean, I’ll take that it, actually kind of exactly what you said, I know it’s kind of like a joke, like are some people just auctioning off Excel spreadsheets, which is actually exactly what people are doing. My first foray into this business was truly eye opening. It was just so shocking because basically there are listservs that anybody can join. Anybody with the computer and an email can join. These listservs where essentially the secondary debt market lives. And what happens is you get marketing emails in and out of your inbox all day, every day, about this portfolio for sale, that portfolio for sale.
[00:08:30] And sometimes it’s outrageous. I mean, the first portfolio we purchased was for $2,000 and that was for $2 million worth of debt. At the time I couldn’t grasp what that number was. I was getting out my phone calculator to be like, what is the percentage of that? How do we just do that?
[00:08:45] Okay, great. This is great. It’s just, you scan this marketplace for portfolios that fit what we want to cancel. So some of the things that I typically look out for when we’re in this marketplace is debt that has been charged off or has existed for a really long time.
[00:08:59] They’re older debts because that tells me, these are folks who have been struggling with this debt for a really, really long time. And we’re also looking for in particular shady banks or payday loans or industries that we know are dangerously unregulated, and not a lot of people are talking about right now.
[00:09:16] I think just recently debt cancellation has been part of the national conversation in terms of the cancel student debt movement. I think that’s so great that it is now something that’s starting to really talk about, and it’s becoming a household topic.
[00:09:30] But there’s still really not a lot of conversation around people who get sucked in by predatory lending in terms of predatory credit lenders or loan sharks or payday loans. I mean, one portfolio we’ve purchased in the last couple of years is from this quote bank.
[00:09:47] Guys, can’t see me on the podcast where I’m doing air quotes. But this bank is called Credit One. And if you Google Credit One, their logo looks almost exactly like Capital One. Except then you look at their terms and their interest rates are upwards of 30 to 50%. They are charging fees for their credit cards.
[00:10:05] They are charging. annual fees, monthly maintenance fees just to keep your credit, whatever that means. And again, the first time I Googled them, I thought it was capital one. I was like, oh, the Capital One cafe ads, they’re legit, they’re right on a corner, you know?
[00:10:20] And then you realize that it’s not, but it’s legal. And they scam a lot of people. They intentionally give credit cards to people who have low credit, who can’t obtain a credit card otherwise. They are intentionally marketing themselves in places where people have low credit, which also happen to be a lot of communities of color.
[00:10:39] People who can’t obtain credit, otherwise, people who can’t obtain loans otherwise. It’s such a shady marketplace of different things that get popped up and so that was one of the portfolios we purchased.
[00:10:52] We literally got emailed an Excel spreadsheet. It had people’s first names, last names, addresses, phone numbers, social security numbers, emails, multiple past addresses, multiple past phone numbers. All of this personal information about this person that a debt collector can then use to harass you.
[00:11:11] Right? Some portfolios we’ve seen include social media information because they actually just made it legal to contact people on social media regarding their debt, so your social media handles are now in debt portfolios. Sometimes there are next of kin contact, so they not only harass you, they could harass and threaten your family.
[00:11:28] All of this information literally got emailed to me in an Excel spreadsheet and I feel like I’m doing something illegal by having it but, again, everything was perfectly legal. This is how the debt market is run and it should terrify everybody.
[00:11:41] Shannon Bennett: Wow. So I know that you brought up the national conversation about student debt and student debt cancellation. I know that with the Debt Collective, they’re using the Rolling Jubilee as a means of protest or as a means of calling attention to how ridiculous student debt can be. A couple months ago, they canceled the debt from Bennett College.
[00:12:02] I believe it’s an all female HBCU. After doing it, they’re like, hey Joe Biden, this is what you could be doing too. At any point as you’re working, do you feel like what you’re doing is an active protest as well, or no?
[00:12:13] Tina Tang: Oh, I think absolutely. I think it’s really highlighting just how predatory the system is, right? Cory mentioned earlier, we didn’t need to raise $10 million to cancel all $10 million. Right?
[00:12:23] Shannon Bennett: Right.
[00:12:24] Tina Tang: The fact that, first of all, debt isn’t real and half of money and capitalism also isn’t real I mean, when we talk about student debt, the fact that it’s been paused for so long and our country is running just fine. I mean, it’s not fine, but it’s fine. It’s breaking down for other reasons than student loans and borrowers not paying their debt.
[00:12:42] Shannon Bennett: Right.
[00:12:42] Tina Tang: Highlights the fact that didn’t need this money. You’re just getting this money. So you can profit off of us, right? Same thing with these payday loans that we’ve purchased.
[00:12:50] A lot of these debts have been folks that have been in debt for the last 10, 15 years. And they’ve been struggling with this. If Credit One didn’t need their money back 15 years ago, they don’t need it back now. The whole point is that they kept you in debt so they can keep collecting money off of you for the rest of your life. That’s not you just paying back the money you owe, that’s you paying back the money you owe and 600% of that. So I think absolutely we see this as a means to actually help individuals get out of debt, but also definitely highlighting how twisted this whole system is and how it really should be better.
[00:13:22] Corei Flowers: I just wanted to chime in because I really do love the language of describing it as a form of protest. It’s similar to the language that we use a lot about disrupting the debt industry because it is an industry that needs to be taken down a peg, so to speak.
[00:13:38] And it is a way of showing people that, though we’ve been conditioned to just accept debt as a normal part of our lives, it’s just adulthood. It’s just something that you have to fall into at some point, Taking a stance and saying, no, this isn’t normal. That it isn’t real.
[00:13:53] This isn’t something that we should have to do. We shouldn’t have to experience financial ruin just to get an education, to buy a home.
[00:14:00] Shannon Bennett: Right.
[00:14:01] Corei Flowers: It is not something that we should just accept. And just run with it. Like everything is everything. So I really, do appreciate you, calling the work that we do as, debt activists, or protest, because it really is.
[00:14:14] It’s saying no, this isn’t okay. We should be doing something about it and we can do something about it.
[00:14:19] Shannon Bennett: Right. Cause really it shouldn’t exist. There shouldn’t be a company that is fighting for people buying their debt on the dollar and then discharging it. But there is a need for you. Do you know of anyone else in the space that’s doing anything similar?
[00:14:32] Tina Tang: I know the Rolling Jubilee arm of the Debt Collective has canceled debt, especially student loans. They were a huge inspiration for us when we first started the organization focused on medical debt alone. I think for us, where we really found our niche when we started was, thinking like, there’s activism around student loans because there’s this idea of student loan debt is “good debt”, because you got an education out of it, even though you shouldn’t have had to go into debt for your education.
[00:15:02] And then there’s a sense of medical debt again, also an acceptable form of debt because you needed a life saving procedure And therefore you went into debt. So there’s less shame sometimes I think, around medical debt, because it’s something you had to do.
[00:15:15] But I think something that we found has a lot of shame attached to it are things like payday loans and credit cards, which is something we have chosen to be our focus for the time being.
[00:15:24] Because there’s this idea of personal responsibility and being irresponsible, if you were someone that took out a payday loan. And we really wanna dispel the myth that that’s an individual problem. The fact is that most people don’t take out payday loans to blow their cash in Vegas.
[00:15:40] Most people take out a payday loan so they can pay their utility bill and keep the heat on until the next paycheck. But there’s this sense of, if you did that, you must have messed up somewhere in life where you had to end up going to this payday lender and that’s not okay.
[00:15:54] And that’s not true. I think the other side of that is, a lot of people also just don’t have access to banks. We don’t really talk about that. Right? There’s this idea of banking deserts, where you can drive miles and miles and miles and not hit a bank, but you’ll hit five pay lenders before you get to the bank.
[00:16:09] So if that’s where you are, and of course, those are again, predominantly poor neighborhoods, predominantly black and brown neighborhoods. Then people go into those neighborhoods and say well, why don’t you have good credit? And it’s like, where was I supposed to get good credit? There’s not a bank for 25 miles.
[00:16:24] Where was I supposed to go for this credit? The closest thing to me is a payday loan. And I think those are some of the issues that we really wanted to highlight, especially highlight this from two founders of color. Those were issues that were really close to us.
[00:16:35] Shannon Bennett: Mm-hmm, makes sense. And then just to circle back. So the Debt Collective and Bennett College abolished $1.7 million dollars in student debt and it helped close to 500 women that attended Bennett College. So that’s a pretty big deal.
[00:16:47] Tina Tang: Correct.
[00:16:48] Shannon Bennett: Members of the Debt Collective on the show talk about that process, but also we had a chance to say, hey, what were some of these women saying when you canceled their debt?
[00:16:56] I mean, what kind of responses did you get? I’m gonna offer you guys the same question too, when you’re calling folks or emailing them, or however you reach out to them and saying, hey, your debt, we’re discharging it. What are they saying to you?
[00:17:06] Tina Tang: Yeah. So we have to send people letters to tell them that we have discharged their debt. And oftentimes people don’t believe it’s real. A huge battle has been just convincing folks that we’re not a scam, that we’re not trying to scam you. Everybody else has tried to scam you in the past.
[00:17:22] This is actually a real thing. I think that’s actually been a huge part of the battle again, because I think student loan cancellation has been such a huge part of the national conversation where that is now. A much more accepted thing for it to happen, right? If somebody calls you and says your student loans have been canceled, I feel that’s something, some people are waiting by the phone, hoping for every single day.
[00:17:41] Tina Tang: But if somebody calls me and says your credit card debt was canceled, they’re like, oh, are you a get out of debt quick? One of those schemes, right? So I think that’s actually been a huge battle for us. Even establishing legitimacy amongst people that we want to help.
[00:17:54] Because the industry is so scammy that people’s first reaction is that this is a scam. So we’re working on that. We’ve also had people who have reached out to us directly to ask if we can cancel their debt. And it’s a really unfortunate thing that, because we’re buying portfolios en masse, we aren’t able to seek out debt and cancel it, which we wish we could.
[00:18:17] But I think that also helps us operate as a nonprofit, where we’re not seeking out our own debts or the debts of our friends and the debts of our family. We are really just doing this because we wanna help the industry and the system and everybody be better.
[00:18:29] Shannon Bennett: Are you reading the email I sent you last week? Is that you’re doing? Cause I might have sent you that in an email at some point, please buy my debt and cancel it. Thanks.
[00:18:42] Tina Tang: Yeah, it’s been eye opening, just to have people share their personal stories with us. One story that stuck out to me is back in April, we posted a post on Instagram about tax debt, which is something I’d really not looked into, but the IRS is a huge debt holder because a lot of people owe taxes and actually, I didn’t know this until we did this post. I really dug in and did a lot of research into it, which is that the IRS can actually garnish your wages, for tax withholding things. And we did this post series on Instagram about tax debt and somebody actually reached out and shared with us how all last year, the IRS took 25% of her income, for four months for taxes that she had already paid.
[00:19:20] And because of that, it actually put her and her mom out of their home. They had lost their home. They moved in with her aunt for the time being just so they could have a place to live. She was telling me how she literally was having dreams about the IRS hold music cause she had to spend so much time on the phone with them trying to just be like, you need to give me my money back. Cause I have no home and I already paid my taxes, finally I think she had to get her Senator involved, in order to get this settled. I truly hope it is actually settled now, but it was just stories like this that we hear from folks everywhere where we’re like, this is why we do what we do.
[00:19:54] Cause this isn’t okay.
[00:19:56] Shannon Bennett: Right, right. That’s not okay. That’s a shocking story. I’m taking that in.
[00:20:00] You know, in preparing for this discussion, I had wondered what barriers you are facing? So outside of legitimizing yourself with the folks that you’re trying to help.
[00:20:10] What other barriers are you facing?
[00:20:12] Tina Tang: Yeah. I think on the debt purchase side, just navigating how predatory lenders are, just how shady this whole system feels and everything feels kind of illegal. And making sure that we are doing everything above board in the right way and making sure that we’re doing everything we can to help as many people and then I think that our organization, we’re a small organization, we’re still relatively new. I attempted to launch in March of 2020. So that went really well for me. I didn’t know, the world was gonna also shut down the same month that I was like, great.
[00:20:41] We’re gonna launch a nonprofit and do all these fundraising events and it was gonna be so great and then, the world shut down and I lost my job. Other people I knew lost their jobs because of the pandemic and we were kind of like, oh, okay. We’re gonna have to do some rethinking here on how we wanna structure.
[00:20:55] I think we’ve gotten to a really great place this year with Corei coming on board to help us with fundraising. But, we’re a small organization and we don’t need to raise $10 million, but we need to raise some in order to cancel. So I think, we’re trying to figure out how to talk about establishing legitimacy, not just with others that we want to cancel their debts, who we wanna cancel, but also just with the broader community and have this be a cause that people want to be a part of and want to support.
[00:21:20] Shannon Bennett: Right. And then for Corey, have you seen any barriers in terms of fundraising you can share?
[00:21:25] Corei Flowers: I would say yes, but I have very limited experience so far. I’ve been with Debtless for three months now. We are officially coming up on my three month anniversary.
[00:21:34] Shannon Bennett: Congrats.
[00:21:35] Corei Flowers: Thank you. Thank you. Yes, very exciting stuff. So far, it really has just been trying to reach out and branch connections.
[00:21:43] So I’m really, really glad that we were able to make the connection that we did. But really branching out in making connections with other organizations, activists and individuals that are doing this type of work. Cause I really think that making those connections are what’s really gonna put us on the map and allow us to build the sort of.
[00:21:59] Donations that we want in order to cancel the amount of debt that we want to eventually cancel. So just navigating that space and trying to connect without actually being in person, has been an interesting experience. And luckily I have some experience because before Debtless, I was just jumping from political campaign to political campaign.
[00:22:17] Shannon Bennett: That’s right. Yeah.
[00:22:19] Corei Flowers: So from 2020, until now much of the political organizing that I did was completely virtual, which went against everything I’m taught as an organizer about building interpersonal relationships. So I’m trying to lean on that knowledge and apply it here. It has created some barriers just for me personally.
[00:22:37] But, I do think that just with the relationships that I’ve made so far, just within these past three months, that we can only go up from here and I’m really, really excited about the future of Debtless and just having this opportunity to grow with an organization like this has been really amazing.
[00:22:51] I’m grateful to Tina every day. I tell her how amazing she is all the time. And even earlier today, I was telling her how in awe I am of her. Even starting this organization during the pandemic and growing it to where it is now is amazing. Cause I remember my mindset in the bulk of the pandemic in 2020 was I’m just trying to work and not have a mental breakdown every five minutes. The fact that you’re able to create what you have and cancel as much debt as you have is amazing. So despite the barriers, I do think that we can really only go up from here. So I’m really excited about the future of Debtless and being able to grow with that.
[00:23:26] Shannon Bennett: I love that. I was gonna bring up your political past too. Cause I feel that feeds into this cause Tina, don’t you have some political organizing background as well?
[00:23:34] Tina Tang: Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I went to school for neuroscience, and I hated it. I was like, this is not for me. And actually debt played a huge decision into it because I come from an immigrant family. So I was told very early on that a college degree was never gonna be enough. You need a post-college degree.
[00:23:48] That is the definition of success for me and my family, and at the time I was genuinely looking into, okay, what can I do? What degree can I get and not go into more debt ? So I ultimately was really lucky because grad school and academic sciences pay you a stipend, and actually tuition is- so, the program pays for your tuition. They actually pay you a stipend, which is not a living wage, but it was better than nothing. So, that was a huge decision for me actually that played a big decision into choosing a career, which ultimately I was like, wow, I hate this. This was not worth it.
[00:24:24] Tina Tang: So I really made a pivot, jumped into politics, which is something I had always loved civic organizing for me coming from an Asian American community where civic engagement is historically low, right?
[00:24:37] Shannon Bennett: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Tina Tang: API do not vote. And I was someone who was always like, mom, dad, here’s a voter registration card.
[00:24:43] Fill it out. We’re always voting on family voting day. Right. This is what we’re doing. So it was always a huge part of who I was. I never imagined that was something I could do and do for a living but really it was because of grad school that I was okay, I’m done.
[00:24:57] I’m gonna go actually pursue something I love because it just can’t be worse than this. And here we are.
[00:25:02] Shannon Bennett: And here we are.
[00:25:03] So since we’ve landed on education for a bit, what are your experiences with student debt?
[00:25:08] Corei Flowers: So I can speak to mine a little bit. Because my experience with debt in general has solely been student debt. I feel very lucky for that. But the position that I’m in right now is that I’m also lucky to depend on my parents to house me.
[00:25:22] For the time being while I am paying my loans back and just continuing to try to stay on a good financial track. It is something that I’ve seen is becoming more and more common. From my perspective, student debt has made it very, very difficult to actually move out. And I am definitely in a really, really good position where I can still stay with my parents. I have really loving and supportive parents who would never kick me out for anything.
[00:25:48] So being able to live with them has definitely been a privilege that I’m really, really grateful for. But at the same time, I’m seeing this pattern, especially with people my age, I’m 24. I’m just getting started in my career, so to speak and I’m trying to figure things out.
[00:26:05] Corei Flowers: And I feel this burden weighing me down and preventing me from doing that. So I feel this is becoming a reality for a lot of people who have recently graduated college within the last five years, who really, really want to create a comfortable living situation for themselves and are not able to do that.
[00:26:21] And this is something that I hopefully am seeing for myself within the next five years, but I’m looking at my financial situation with student loans and then also the economy. And I don’t know if that’s something that’s feasible for me.
[00:26:33] Right now, I guess it’s really my top priority and it is something that shifts your priorities around. And mine currently is just building a cushion for myself, so to speak so that I can continue to be in an okay financial situation. But, it is something that is constantly on my mind, how am I going to ever get out of this situation?
[00:26:54] I don’t know if it’ll be within the next five years or even longer than that. So it is just putting me on pause a little bit in terms of my own development, professionally, personally. That has been generally my experience just within the past three, almost four years post undergrad.
[00:27:10] And it also has affected my decision making in terms of do I want to pursue grad school? And immediately I was like, absolutely not. It’ll never happen. Not taking out loans for grad school. So that is something that I do hear a lot from other people that I’ve just spoken to in my age group, Just trying to figure out those next steps.
[00:27:28] I’m already dealing with undergrad and putting grad on top of that would be crazy. So just in terms of professional personal development, student loans have definitely become a burden. And it’s just something that’s constantly on the forefront of my mind when talking about my personal and financial decision making.
[00:27:46] Shannon Bennett: And that’s something, I know we try to highlight a lot because I think when people are opposing student debt cancellation or student debt reform, there’s this concept of the folks that are complaining about the industry. There’s this concept of us being lazy or not wanting to repay our debts or not being responsible.
[00:28:02] But when we say that we wake up in the morning, fully aware of how much debt we have, it is at the forefront of our minds. The goal is to be responsible citizens that are offering some form of value. So we’re not just out here being wild. And usually people that we talk to about this are like, I think about it all the time.
[00:28:18] It stresses me out. It makes me anxious. I’m budgeting, just putting that out. We’re not wayward citizens.
[00:28:23] Corei Flowers: Yeah. Tina and I have been talking a lot about the language that we use when we’re talking about debt and being more inclusive and being more understanding of people’s situations when it comes to debt and falling into debt. And, I think that there is this mindset surrounding it, where, even if people are burdened with debt and still having a good time and doing things and buying things that aren’t necessarily needed, that’s still okay. Having debt shouldn’t mean that you just become a hermit. You never go out, you never see your friends, you never eat out, that shouldn’t be the case. That shouldn’t be the mindset that we’re operating from. When we think about who is deserving of debt cancellation, and even just using the terminology debt cancellation, which is something that Tina brought up to me that I had never thought of. When we use terminology like debt forgiveness, it implies that that person is guilty of something and we have to forgive them.
[00:29:13] Whereas debt cancellation is more like, no, this is an industry that is predatory, that is set up to see you fail. And so we should just cancel it. It’s not something that you need to be forgiven for. It’s not something that you have to atone for. And if you are in a situation where you’re struggling financially due to debt, it doesn’t mean that your life should just stop completely. You are still worthy of debt cancellation. You are still worthy of having that financial freedom.
[00:29:40] Shannon Bennett: Exactly.
[00:29:41] Especially too. When you realize that the average borrower’s taking, at least for student debt, is talking about 20 years sometimes to pay off their debt. So like you’re gonna eat out, I’m sorry. In the 20 year period of time, you’re paying off your student loans, you’re gonna eat out, you’re gonna see a movie.
[00:29:55] You’re gonna have other expenses that aren’t gonna look on paper that they’re completely necessary, but you also have to live. So I appreciate you saying that. And then Tina, you touched on your experience a bit with student loans, but what has your experience been with student loans?
[00:30:06] Tina Tang: Yeah, I think I echo off how Corei started. I think I’m in a really fortunate situation right now where I am not currently dealing with any more student loan debt, which is great. But what I am still actually paying off now, which is what I mentioned earlier when we first started. I hate sharing my age.
[00:30:21] I’m turning 30 this year. It’s gonna be great. I’m hearing good things. So I think it’ll be fun. But I am still paying off credit card debt that I had when I was 18. My living expenses were basically I’ll swipe my credit card. It’s gonna be fine. And it’s not fine because it’s been 10 years later now and it hasn’t been fine. And again, I feel people have exactly what you guys are just saying, this idea that oh, you must have been partying and you’re buying stuff that you didn’t need.
[00:30:46] And did I go to a party? Of course I did. I went to college. But most of that credit card went to food, right? Cash expenses for rent and utilities. That’s what I was paying off. I mean, I was literally telling Corei earlier that I went to college in New York and I lived in a one bedroom apartment with two other girls.
[00:31:01] People have this idea that if you have debt, you must’ve just been wasting your money and it’s not true. And also the fact that we don’t offer any financial education to anybody really in this country.
[00:31:13] My high school had home economics. I was like, what was I ever gonna do with sewing a dress on a doll, great. But what I really would’ve liked to know is what an APR rate was, which I didn’t know when I got my first credit card, nobody told me what that meant. Nobody told me what compound interest meant.
[00:31:30] And even when you have an interest rate, that’s for a credit card, let’s say 20%. And you’re like, okay, that sounds high, but reasonable, even though it shouldn’t be reasonable. You forget that, that’s actually compounded on top of paying interest on your interest, on your interest, on your interest.
[00:31:43] Which is why it takes so long to pay off debt. So anyway, thirties are looking great, but that’s what we’re working on right now.
[00:31:50] Shannon Bennett: As a very wise old 37, I should say that the thirties are great. They’re great. Something magical happens in your thirties? It’s awesome. So welcome.
[00:32:02] And now that I’m looking to the forties, I’ve also heard really great things, so we’re leaning into it.
[00:32:07] Corei Flowers: That’s good to hear. I’m glad I have a lot to look forward to.
Shannon Bennett: I guess the next question is, and I feel we’ve touched on this, if it feels redundant, let me know, but I wanted to ask: how has this work affected how you feel about debt? Has it changed it or has it just reinforced the ideas that you’ve had before about the predatory nature of the system?
[00:32:23] Corei Flowers: For me, it’s definitely evolved. A lot, even just today, my mindset about debt is just changing every single time. I have a conversation with Tina or every single time I engage with a new aspect of this position that I’m currently in. And so I have really been able to imagine a future, like I mentioned earlier without debt, which is something that I never thought that I would be able to say.
[00:32:47] And it’s something that I had never really put that much thought into, because it just seemed so far-fetched. It was just the mindset that we will never be in a situation, as a country where people are not struggling financially. And now I do have, hope you could say for the future in terms of people not struggling financially paycheck to paycheck having to take out payday loans just to put food on the table. Just that concept now, to me saying it out loud sounds absolutely ridiculous. And being able to look at it in that way is something that is a really amazing aspect that has come out of working for Debtless for just these short three months.
[00:33:26] So I definitely am excited to just continue to grow my understanding of debt in the debt industry and how predatory it is. And put a name to how I’ve been feeling about my place as a woman of color under the current financial situation that we’re in as a country.
[00:33:44] Tina Tang: I, as a woman of color, it was very difficult to come to terms with the fact that debt and the debt industry is just another way to marginalize people like myself that is intentionally done. That is something that is overlooked a little bit. I feel in some debt activist spaces, it’s getting better.
[00:34:02] Corei Flowers: Definitely for sure. But, what Tina was talking about earlier in terms of the types of debt that we aim to cancel at Debtless is Trying to be more inclusive and look into types of debt that are affecting people of color. The most that are affecting marginalized groups across the board the most, because those are the people that are hit, the hardest people in low income communities.
[00:34:21] People who are in the most vulnerable situations will be taken advantage of the most by the debt industry. And so recognizing that, being able to name that has really changed my perspective and made me realize that this is something that just across the board should not exist. there’s no ifs or buts about it.
[00:34:37] And it’s not a moral dilemma on part of the borrower, but it really is just a system as a whole. It needs to be dismantled 100%. So yeah, that’s where I’m at in terms of how I do debt and that’s my story. And I’m sticking to it. I also am looking at debt now as a worker’s rights issue. It is wage theft, how this is all coming together and how they all inform one another is something else that has really been weighing heavily on me. so I definitely think that looking at debt from that perspective too, is really important.
[00:35:09] And I’m glad that people are bringing that up and starting to talk about that.
[00:35:13] Shannon Bennett: I love how much research and how much data is now available in regards to how many women are holding various debts and how many women of color are holding various debts. In that way, we can actually try to understand some of the issues that we’re seeing.
[00:35:26] And we know that women are holding the most student debt. We know that black women are holding higher student debt balances. And so that’s actually very helpful information to know when we start talking about why the system is not functioning as it should. On what Corei said with wage theft, the flip side of that, it’s if we were able to cancel debt, we could consider giving everybody a raise. I automatically deduct a portion of my paycheck every two weeks that I know is gonna go towards debt.
[00:35:51] Tina Tang: Right? That’s not even money that I’m budgeting for, because that’s not my money. That’s money that I know is gonna go immediately from this account into that one. And it’s not my money. Just the thought of could one day my entire paycheck actually be my money. What does that feel like when you get an offer letter from a job and you actually make the amount of money that they said you were gonna make, what does that feel like? I imagine that feels pretty nice. Again, we put this big moral question on debt of people are lazy and people aren’t paying it back and people aren’t doing this and people aren’t doing that. When it’s all this other stuff that you guys have already been talking about, people who don’t endorse student debt cancellation, but will endorse raising the minimum wage.
[00:36:30] It’s the same thing. You can do both, God forbid we help people in multiple different ways, you know? Yeah, Corei got me thinking about that, but we should go back to dismantling capitalism cause that’s great.
[00:36:40] Shannon Bennett: Yeah. Nikki, and I’ve had conversations about the moral application when it comes to lower and middle class folks when it comes to debt, and borrowing versus, there’s a group of people that, they borrow, they don’t pay back. They take on more debt and it’s thought of as being business strategy or wealth management.
[00:36:59] But for some reason when it comes to lower or middle class folks, it becomes an issue of morality. And I think that’s really interesting.
Anything else to add? Anything else anyone wants to share? I know the big thing I wanna add for you is how can people find you and how can they give, how can they donate if they feel compelled to do so?
[00:37:15] Corei Flowers: Yeah. So, you can find us on Instagram and Twitter at @debtlessforall. And it’s four spelled out FOR and you can also just visit our website, which is www.debtlessnfp.org. And on our website, you’ll find tons of information. You can subscribe to our newsletter.
[00:37:33] So we do send out emails weekly. I’m just updating you on news regarding debt, about the things that we’re up to. So if you wanna sign up there, you can stay up to date on everything that we have coming up, and support our work and the different ways that you can support our work.
[00:37:49] We also have avenues on our website where you can share your own personal story. If you’re comfortable, we would love to hear from people who have experiences with debt, and how that has impacted them. Or if you are someone who has had debt canceled by Debtless you could share your story with us about how that has impacted you and how that has added better quality to your life.
[00:38:09] That’s something that we would love to hear more about. So yeah, definitely follow us. Once again, @debtlessforall on Instagram and Twitter, or check us out at www.debtlessnfp.org.
[00:38:19] Shannon Bennett: That’s awesome. Thank you. We’re in July right now, but come Christmas time. If anyone is feeling charitable, do not forget our friends at Debtless. And then if you’re listening, we’ll have links to Debtless on our site as well at www.matteroflifeanddebt.com. Thank you so much for being here. You guys are doing so many awesome things.
[00:38:38] I love the fact that you exist. I love the fact that we had the opportunity to connect this. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being on the podcast. Come back any time with updates, come chat with us. Okay.
[00:38:49] Shannon Bennett: If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, subscribe and share it with a friend. It really helps people discover us. Matter of Life and Debt is hosted by me, Shanna. It is produced by Shanna Bennett, Emma Klauber, and Nikki Nolan.
It is edited by Nikki Nolan and Talia Mole, transcripts and writing is done by Emma Klauber. Efe Akerman created the theme music.
Visit our website www.matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen to more episodes, access transcripts, and get additional context for the subjects you just heard about. Absolutely for free the website again, www.matteroflifeanddebt.com.
Thanks again for listening.
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