Shanna speaks with Debt Collective members Thomas Gokey (Debt Collective Co-Founder), Dr. Shamell Bell (Harvard lecturer) and Braxton Brewington (Debt Collective Press Secretary) about their foundational belief in the Rolling Jubilee. The group shares their work with Bennett College to abolish $1.7M in student debt.

References

Transcript:

[00:00:05] Shanna Bennett: Hi, I’m Shanna Bennett and I’m here with Dr. Shamell Bell, visionary escalator of the Debt Collective, Thomas Gokey Co-Founder of the Debt Collective and Braxton Brewington, an organizer with the Debt Collective and you’re listening to Matter of Life and Debt.

[00:00:26] Welcome to the podcast. Hey everyone!

[00:00:29] Dr. Shamell Bell: Yay.

[00:00:33] Shanna Bennett: So we have gathered here today because of this bombshell news that broke recently that the Debt Collective canceled debt for almost 500 women that attend Bennett College. This is remarkable. It has gotten tons of media coverage. It is quite the talking point recently. And so naturally we wanted to get some more information. And so we’ve gathered our Debt Collective friends and figured we’d talk about this for a little bit. So let’s dive right in. This concept of buying this kind of debt for pennies on the dollar, started as the Rolling Jubilee, right Thomas?

[00:01:16] Thomas Gokey: Yeah, this was an idea that came out of conversation at Occupy [Wall Street]. Something I didn’t know is that personal debts can be bought and sold on the secondary market.

[00:01:26] And that we could maybe raise some money in and buy and cancel it rather than let it get collected.

[00:01:31] Shanna Bennett: And then for those who don’t know what the Rolling Jubilee is, can we give some background?

[00:01:36] Thomas Gokey: Yeah. So the Rolling Jubilees started roughly a year after Occupy got evicted. In 2012, we had a big celebration, like cultural events such as a telethon, was what we called the People’s Bailout and it was a ton of fun. And we raised way more money than we were expecting to through small dollar donations.

[00:01:57] And then we went out on the secondary debt market and we started buying and canceling medical debt, some kinds of student debt, private probation loans, payday loans, etc, as a way of illustrating that this debt is illegitimate. That you don’t owe it. That investors are buying and selling it to each other for a fraction of the price, and then turning around and demanding the full amount from you.

[00:02:26] Shanna Bennett: So do you see this as a form of protest?

[00:02:29] Thomas Gokey: We were really clear that this is not charity, right? That we reject the idea that this is some charitable action. We don’t think this debt should have existed in the first place. So it’s an intervention to illuminate how debt functions. What really gives us power, I think is when debtors start organizing and the Rolling Jubilee can’t cancel all of the debt. It gets a lot of attention and it’s kind of this flash in the pan thing. But it’s really only useful if we can then turn it into an opportunity to organize people and envision a different way of structuring our society, where we aren’t forced into debt for medical care, for housing, for education, for our basic needs. That we’re not going to payday lenders to put food on the table or to buy diapers.

[00:03:13] Shanna Bennett: I saw recently that on the Debt Collective’s website, it says something like, you know, debt canceled to date and it has a $5 billion number. Does that include what the Rolling Jubilee has done in years prior?

[00:03:29] Thomas Gokey: Yeah, but that’s really just a small fraction. Right? So I think that as a proof of our concept, it’s really debtor organizing that gets the goods. The vast majority of that is from organizing debt strikes and campaigns and strategies. When there is a broad cancellation for people, the amount that the Rolling Jubilee canceled, we need to update it.

[00:03:53] So I don’t have the most up-to-date numbers, but it’s, you know, it’s in the tens of millions.

[00:03:59] Shanna Bennett: Wow. And then again, the funding is through the union?

[00:04:06] Thomas Gokey: No. So, when we first started the project, it was all crowdfunded, small-dollar donations. And then we actually stopped collecting more money. You know, people kept wanting to donate more and more and more. And we said, you know what? This is taking up all of our time and our resources and our energy. And we really want to shift gears towards debtor organizing, which is kind of frustrating because People are less excited about organizing, even though it’s more important.

[00:04:35] So we sort of put the Rolling Jubilee in hibernation. We responsibly spent what we had raised up to that time. And then we focused on building a debtors’ union. Now, when the pandemic hit, somebody came to us with the offer to make a sizable donation. If we would revive the Rolling Jubilee in the context of the pandemic where people were really losing their jobs and being forced into debt.

[00:05:02] It’s what we’ve been doing in the last year or so that all comes from one single donor.

[00:05:07] Shanna Bennett: Wow. And it’s okay if you can’t speak to this, but it’s something that Nikki pointed out so when Alan was on the podcast a while ago, he’d mentioned that student debt rarely ends up on the secondary market because it’s so profitable. Can you speak to that at all?

[00:05:25] Thomas Gokey: So federal student loans do not don’t get bought or sold in the United States. At least not now. There have been some proposals to privatize the student debt book, which happened in the UK for example. Where they would just sell off all of the steps to private investors to try to collect it and make a profit off of it.

[00:05:44] But federal student loans right now, don’t get bought and sold. So the student loans that we were able to buy are of a couple of different varieties. Private student loans do get bought and sold. And then what are called unpaid tuition receivables. So these are not loans. Nobody took out a loan.

[00:06:04] It’s an unpaid bill that the student owes directly to the university. So back in 2014, we purchased and abolished a bunch of unpaid tuition receivables from the for-profit predatory school Corinthian College Inc, we canceled all of that. And then we tried to organize the Corinthian students to build a debtors’ union.

[00:06:25] And a debt strike. Same thing with Bennett College. In this case, it’s not anyone’s federal student loans. It’s the unpaid bills that they owed directly to Bennett. And I should say we’re doing something very different with Bennett than we’ve done in the past. This is a genuine partnership. You know, we’re constantly experimenting and thinking about how we could do this differently.

[00:06:47] So rather than go on the secondary market and buy, we thought, are there people who we want to partner with, who we want to give it to because they’re doing good stuff? And so Bennett is unlike anything we’ve done in the past, a full partner in this project saying, we want to wipe out all of the debt that our former students owed directly to the college.

[00:07:12] Shanna Bennett: I remember reading that it was a partnership. So this is a perfect segue actually, to discuss specifically Bennett. So why Bennett College?

[00:07:20] Braxton Brewington: So Bennett College, which is a small liberal arts college in Greensboro, North Carolina, is one of two HBCUs for women in the entire country. So the other is Spelman. And it has a very, very rich history. So actually right across the street from Bennett is North Carolina A&T State University, which is another HBCU.

[00:07:44] The largest public HBCU in the country actually. I think North Carolina A&T gets actually a really big rep for activism. And in a lot of sense, Bennett College, this college for black women, sometimes doesn’t quite get that shine. But in actuality, I’ve told this story before of how Martin Luther King Jr., wanted to come speak at A&T’s campus. And A&T didn’t let him speak. Actually Bennett College right across the street allowed Martin Luther King to speak. And so there’s actually a really rich history with Bennett College, Black women in the south, in North Carolina, sort of taking the lead on a movement in a lot of sense. Bennett Bells as they’re called, take the lead in a lot of sense to fight for economic and racial justice.

[00:08:36] And so I think they know that history. And knowing that Bennett College services black women in particular and has also had some financial troubles in the past, as it goes. Tuition has been increasing. And increasingly students, especially Black students in the state of North Carolina, haven’t been able to afford college.

[00:08:58] And so I think there was some intention with Bennett College. You know, a university that would partner with us, but also just knowing the really rich history of Bennett College and the students who go there.

[00:09:10] Shanna Bennett: So you were specifically seeking a school to partner with, or was it the opposite? Did you know of Bennett College beforehand?

[00:09:17] Braxton Brewington: So I went to North Carolina A&T right across the street. So I’m personally very familiar with Bennett College, as we’ve marched to the polls several times together. There was intention with Bennett College. There’s only two HBCUs for women in the nation. So, if Spelman’s listening, maybe we can do something together too.

[00:09:40] Dr. Shamell Bell: Yes, absolutely. I think it’s really important to note that Black women are the most impacted by student loan debt and just student debt in particular.

[00:09:50] And so with Bennett College being one of the country’s two women’s historically black colleges and universities, I think that that’s really important to note. Also the fact that if we cancel the student debt of black women and we get rid of our crushing debt, then this system would be better for everyone, white, black, brown.

[00:10:11] So I think it’s a really good symbol that we started, with Bennett College and Black women, in particular.

[00:10:17] Shanna Bennett: Thank you for taking that time to highlight that fact. And just to piggyback again, statistics are showing that Black women are getting more advanced degrees and to do so they’re taking on more debt. They tend to have higher student debt balances. So it’s fabulous. It really is.

[00:10:32] What was the overall goal?

[00:10:33] So the Debt Collective, you partner with Bennett College. And essentially there was what, $1.7 million in debts owed to the school that the Debt Collective bought for was at $50,000? So pennies on the dollar. And essentially wiped away, canceled this debt. It no longer exists for almost 500 women that went to this university. What is the overall goal in doing that?

[00:11:03] Braxton Brewington: I think in particular, we want to highlight a specific part of Biden’s campaign promise that often goes forgotten. I think a lot of people know, he promised to cancel $10,000 for every single borrower immediately as a form of COVID relief. But he also said if you went to any public college or any HBCU and make under $125,000, which is the vast majority of borrowers, he would cancel all of your federal student loans.

[00:11:30] And so I think we also want it to highlight this of intersection of that promise, students who went to this HBCU to say, these are the folks that have student debt, and these are the folks that wouldn’t have student debt if Biden were to at the least keep his campaign promise. Let alone go further and enact full student cancellation like he should be doing.

[00:11:51] So I think that’s part of it. And also to reorientate the conversation away from folks who I think sometimes think stereotypically hold student debt like wealthier white individuals from Ivy Leagues, but it’s actually Black women who went to HBCUs. People who don’t have income over $120,000 or $150,000.

[00:12:14] It’s actually half, or much less than that. So I think that was part of the goal in this debt buy. As Thomas said, they highlight the very phony morality of debt because immediately people ask why can’t I purchase my debt for the same ratio of two pennies on the dollar? Or why can’t the government do what the Debt Collective is doing?

[00:12:39] And I think those are the questions we want people to ask.

[00:12:41] Dr. Shamell Bell: Yeah, I think we should not have to do this. So I think that’s something that we are pointing out with this work is that we’ve lost sight of the fundamental moral issue. Like education is a right, that we are all entitled to. So essentially we’re doing the government’s job and it’s shameful to the government.

[00:12:59] However, If they had any shame. So I think what the Debt Collective and the Rolling Jubilee has done is really put, just a spark. You know, there’s an article that I would love for us to share. But we talk about Rolling Jubilee as a spark and not the solution. And so that’s kind of what I want to offer here is that, you know, the Rolling Jubilee was a bailout by the people for the people, but not a feasible long-term solution to the debt crisis. So this idea of a Rolling Jubilee reminds me of like mutual aid or even the Susu model that saved Africans for generations in the savings model. But I just don’t think that it’s the solution that we should pose.

[00:13:45] Shanna Bennett: And also to Braxton’s point of just highlighting that there was a campaign promise. There were several campaign promises related to student debt. $10K, when wide-scale cancellation for everyone was one of those promises. and so when you tack on a component to that and say that anyone making less than $150,000 a year will get that, that’s not wide scale cancellation. That’s not cancellation for everyone. It’s spending less on that solution than he originally said he would. So I think it’s important to highlight that as well. Did anyone get a chance to chat with some of these very fortunate women that had the opportunity to have their debt canceled in this way?

[00:14:24] Braxton Brewington: I did.

[00:14:26] Shanna Bennett: How was that? I can only imagine the level of excitement.

[00:14:29] Braxton Brewington: Oh my gosh. What an honor, to be able to talk to some of these people and be able to share such good news. I mean, there were definitely folks who I had to do a bit of work to convince that I was telling the truth but the Debt Collective and the Rolling Jubilee are pretty Googleable.

[00:14:50] So I think we were able to convince everyone and people got letters in the mail as well. But I talked to some folks and in every situation that I heard, I think if people were to hear it for themselves they would realize just how illegitimate student debt is, and also realize that everyone is worthy of cancellation.

[00:15:12] There were folks who made choices to not pursue their education anymore because they were having a child or they had to take care of a sick parent, or they just weren’t able to afford tuition anymore. Or they wanted to seek their education somewhere else. People who fell on hard times. We say all of this debt is illegitimate, but I mean, if there’s a word that’s more illegitimate than illegitimate?

[00:15:45] I mean, I spoke to some people who said “I never even went to Bennett College”. I don’t know why I was charged. I mean, so this is happening I’m sure in colleges across the country or just administrative errors or people who just sort of fall through the cracks and get stuck with a bill. So there are a lot of folks who are just really confused as to why they are in this situation, but are very grateful that something like the Debt Collective and the Rolling Jubilee was able to step in and get rid of it. But immediately people said, “I want Biden to cancel my federal student loans” and that if they still had federal student loans, they were waiting on action for that. And I spoke to people who knew about that campaign promise already and have been watching the student debt cancellation movement sort of go by and some people who are ready to take action with the Debt Collective as well. So, I hope that sort of paints a vision of the situation that some of these people were in. And it actually highlights how ridiculous the assumption is that student debtors are people who you know, partied through college or simply financially irresponsible. I spoke to students who were so passionate about their career in journalism or about the children that they had or just the lives that they’re hoping to live. It’s frustrating how clearly this debt has worked and been somewhat successful at stripping that dignity away from these women and student debtors across the country.

[00:17:36] So I’m glad I was able to speak to some of them. I spoke to maybe a dozen or so people, but they seem pretty representative of everyone that this debt definitely shouldn’t exist. Nobody said, “Oh no I was hoping to pay that off”. Everyone said, “Thanks. This is great. And I wish this could happen for my sisters and everyone else too.”

[00:17:58] Shanna Bennett: One of the reasons, and you kind of hinted at this a bit, one of the reasons that I’m so glad that the Debt Collective chose in this instance to focus on women is because we see where oftentimes women are holding up our communities. And sometimes that’s specific to black and brown women, but it’s women across the board. You know, so they’re holding together families and extended families.

[00:18:20] And so the debt is really far more impactful than I think lawmakers realize. I think sometimes their decisions on this issue show how disconnected they are. Because to them, you know, what’s $2,000 in student debt owed to a university? What’s $5,000? What’s $10,000? Meanwhile for working class Americans, it affects your entire life.

[00:18:46] You carry it around. It’s shameful and there’s a burden there. And so it’s awesome that women were highlighted in this way. So the other piece we often see with debt owed to universities, is this policy around withholding transcripts, for example, until this debt is paid or you’re ineligible to enroll in classes for the next semester.

[00:19:11] Did any of the women that you spoke to Braxton highlight that? Or is that something you saw? Was anyone hindered in that way?

[00:19:18] Braxton Brewington: Yes, someone I can remember. I want to say a couple of scenarios, but someone in particular that I can remember really distinctly was very excited about being able to now get access to her transcript so that she could go and pursue an education at a different college. Wasn’t able to get very far because she didn’t have access to her transcript.

[00:19:40] So now that she can get her transcript, because she doesn’t have that bill holding her back, she’s able to pursue education elsewhere. So that is really good news. And maybe even better news is that Bennett College is now ending that practice of withholding transcripts. Folks who aren’t able to afford to pay those bills or aren’t able to afford to keep paying that tuition cause it just holds people back. So hopefully this inspires other universities to end that process and practice as well as withholding transcripts.

[00:20:13] Shanna Bennett: It’s a strange practice. I don’t know in what other industry we see that. Where you could have spent like a hundred thousand dollars with one institution and then they would hold the piece of paper that you need to show that you’ve accumulated those credits. I think it’s very interesting and I’m really glad to see that they’re moving away from that.

[00:20:31] I hope other universities kind of get the hint as well.

[00:20:35] Dr. Shamell Bell: It definitely shows the predatory nature of the education system as it stands right now as a business. And so, I liked the point that you just brought out. I’m glad that they’re getting rid of those practices.

[00:20:48] Shanna Bennett: During our conversation co-founder of the Debt Collective, Andrew Ross was kind enough to send Shamell notes that historically position the Rolling Jubilee and offer more context regarding the origins.

[00:21:02] Here is Shamell reading those notes:

[00:21:05] Dr. Shamell Bell: So Rolling Jubilee was supposed to be a mutual aid project. People helping each other out of a hole. And so we accepted small donations of about $25 on average. And we chose to target medical debt from zip codes in distressed urban areas. We learned a lot about the secondary debt market, which most people still don’t know anything about. And so it was also a public education project. So once people heard through the Rolling Jubilee about how little the collectors had paid for their debts on the secondary market, they would be having a different conversation with them when the collectors called to try to collect on the whole sum. We ended up crowdfunding $750K abolishing more than $35 million with it before we closed the fund down in 2013. It was never intended to be a long-term project. And certainly not a long-term strategy for a would be debtors’ union. It was labor intensive, and we wanted to move on having provided proof of concept that collective action can lead to debt cancellation. The Rolling Jubilee was revived over the last year or so in order to shine a light on the egregiously awful classes of predatory debt, like private probation debt. The media loves the Rolling Jubilee and we are guaranteed coverage.

[00:22:26] The Bennett buy was timed carefully to show that even a scrappy little org, like the Debt Collective can abolish student debt while the federal government with all the power to do so, is holding back. We have abolished some student debt, but only private loans that have little chance of being collected on.

[00:22:44] Federal loans can’t be sold on the secondary market. So most student debt can’t end up there.

[00:22:50] Shanna Bennett: Wow. That’s awesome. We actually had a chance to ride with Andrew on the bus from New York to DC for the April 4th Day of Action.

[00:23:00] And one of the things he said was, he kind of referenced that the secondary market is kind of murky and kind of seedy. And how it wasn’t kind of great, hanging around there, I guess.

[00:23:13] I always thought that was interesting. And I was wondering if that was one of the reasons why there was a pause to the efforts of the Rolling Jubilee. Thomas essentially explained that the goal was to focus on more organizing, but I thought that was interesting.

[00:23:28] Braxton Brewington: Thomas, I actually wanted you to expand on the significance of this debt purchase directly with Bennett College.

[00:23:35] Thomas Gokey: Yeah. A lot of doctors go into medicine because they want to take care of people but unfortunately medicine in the United States is about dealing with enormous amounts of bureaucratic paperwork with health insurance companies. And whether you like it or not, you’re in the debt business, right?

[00:23:56] And the people who really care about education, they go into education to liberate people, right? We call them the liberal arts because it’s supposed to liberate us. And nobody who really cares about education wants to be in the debt business. Right? So schools like Bennett, which are trying to do something important and valuable and special, I think they’d just rather do things differently if they had the sort of the full funding that is required. And the only reason that students are forced into debt is that we have not funded these schools adequately. So in addition to canceling student debt we need a College For All. And you know, the Debt Collective believes that although we fight for universal policies, we know that given the history of the United States, any universal policy also needs to be repairative. So I think that means, in addition to funding, public universities to adequately fund private HBCUs as well. How big would it be if Joe Biden actually followed through on his promise to cancel all student loans for everybody? But Biden himself committed to doing it for public schools and HBCUs. And there’s been a game of goalposts moving where now it’s like there, everyone’s only focusing on that $10,000 number as if that satisfies the promise. No, we shouldn’t move the goalposts. If he actually followed through on that promise, we’re talking a significant amount of debt. Like, I don’t know what the exact number is, but we’re probably talking like half of all outstanding debt would need to be canceled.

[00:25:43] Shanna Bennett: I think I saw too that and correct me if I’m wrong and I’m not an economist, but saw recently that if he did cancel $10,000, let’s say for each person making and it might’ve been under like $125K that annually. That I think he would end up spending somewhere around $200 billion or $233 billion, I think comes to maybe 15% of the $1.8 trillion. Just to show and highlight how insignificant that is when we’re talking about $1.8 or $1.9, if you round up trillion dollars of student loan debt. It’s not enough. So the $10K is very flashy, but when you look at the grand scale of things, it’s just not enough. It’s not helpful.

[00:26:29] Black borrowers will continue to owe these very high balances afterwards.

[00:26:34] Dr. Shamell Bell: Yeah, I was just gonna say that that’s a slap in the face to the Black woman. I think sometimes we do a bit of the argument of reform versus abolition. And even student debt work it’s just kind of like, oh, we’re going to say $10K or $50K. Yes, that’s a victory. We have something. But that’s not necessarily full. All and those types were automatic, which will be useful for the highest demographic and that’s black women. So I wasn’t going to say much other than I can actually speak a little bit to the strategy that I have in my mind as the visionary escalator.

[00:27:15] And I think that we’re already doing such a great job with coalition building across the different orgs that are working for student debt cancellation and NAACP youth. All the different types of people that are working for this. And I think that we are wanting to point out that as long as our messaging is very much not doing the work of undermining the Black women that are needing to get the most relief, then that is really important. So that’s one of the strategy points that we’re saying at the Debt Collective is to make sure that we’re very clear that we’re saying full cancellation. We are also saying automatic.

[00:27:55] And no means testing. So I think that’s one of the things in strategy. Just making sure our messaging is going across the board so that we are kind of showing that this is a united front and that’s really, really key. And then I think the other thing is the practices that we’re going to be doing. Like I have been having this idea of having an emergency preparedness kit. And that’s similar to when there’s an earthquake. I know some of us are in California, you have a bag and you’re able to just go. If Biden says anything other than full cancellation across, you know, automatically for everyone then there’s going to be a strategy that we need to have. And that emergency preparedness kit is what several different organizations have already come together with.

[00:28:42] And there’s different tool kits. And I think that it’s really exciting that people are coming together and saying that, no, we’re not going to take a stand for it. And so, as soon as there’s an announcement that doesn’t say full cancellation, then we know that this fight is not stopping. And that this is, you know, essentially even things like the Rolling Jubilee is that spark, but we know that the solution is the government doing what it should be doing, which is that this is a moral issue.

[00:29:10] This is a right, that we should have free education. And the other part of the strategy is that we are also fighting for education justice. So I think those things are happening at the same time. And it’s really important to point out for the folks who are saying things like, oh, well, what happens if we cancel the student loan debt?

[00:29:29] And then what happens to the people next year that are graduating? Or, you know, we’re just going to get into the same issue. That’s something that we’re also lifting up at the same time as a strategy.

[00:29:41] Shanna Bennett: I love that. I like the idea of an emergency preparedness kit. And the reason too, you know, if you’re listening that there’s a focus on this cancellation being automatic is because on the bureaucratic side, why would we trust an organization like the Department of Education? Why would we trust them to administrate, this kind of means testing $10K kind of cancellation? The volume alone is overwhelming for them. They already struggle to administrate federal repayment plans. And so that’s a problem. They’re already saying that they don’t have access to our 2021 IRS filing information. So how are they going to figure out who is making less than $150,000 last year?

[00:30:28] There’s going to be an application process and that’s going to delay the relief to people that need it most right. And it’s just going to be potentially another mess. And so rather than us go through that and have the borrowers pay the price, it just needs to be automatic. Let’s not have a whole other bureaucratic process tied to this.

[00:30:47] So what Biden’s talking about, it sounds great. I’m sure. And it sounds like it’s organized, but the Department of Education is like, hey, we’re gonna need a minute to get this together. If this happened.

[00:30:57] Dr. Shamell Bell: Yes. The last thing that I wanted to speak to and something that I think that sometimes we miss and when we’re talking about student loan debt cancellation, is that it can be very ableist for people to assume that folks can actually do the paperwork. Or there’s this argument that, oh, what about scholarships? I got scholarships and I worked at the same time.

[00:31:17] And I’m just thinking every time someone says that that’s assuming people are able-bodied and able to work while they’re going to school. And that’s assuming that people are able-bodied and able to fill out this paperwork. And then, I just want us to have that conversation about how the government should cancel it.

[00:31:36] So it takes the, I think the word is the owness off of us. It takes the responsibility off of the people that should have been given free education in the first place. So I want us to throw into this conversation, disability rights. And not having it, not being something that is very difficult for folks who may not be neuro-typical to it sometimes can be an impossible task to someone that isn’t neuro-typical.

[00:32:05] And I think that that’s something that we often don’t think about. How are we, including all people in this conversation?

[00:32:11] Shanna Bennett: That’s a very good point. And then also the part of that too, is that if you don’t know about this application process, how would you even begin to start it? We had Sparky Abraham on the last episode and he mentioned if there’s an organization, let’s say, and this organization has wronged their consumers somehow, you know, you go through litigation and it’s okay so they’re agreeing to fix a situation by paying something out. You don’t say, oh, we’re gonna make this better but just for a portion of you. You don’t say we’re taking responsibility for how poorly we run this and we’re only going to help a handful. No, you wipe it out for everyone is what you would do. I’m not quoting him as a direct quote, but it was something along the lines that. Anything else to add anybody?

[00:33:00] Braxton Brewington: I just want to underline, this is really exciting. Just to emphasize the joy that I heard in a lot of people’s voices and immediate questions, who are you again? Is this a letter coming to my house that you speak of?

[00:33:19] And I think that’s really, really exciting. And I think we should compare it and maybe use it as a model of how Joe Biden can cancel all federal student debt and people being really excited about it. Like that would be a really fun email to read or letter to get in the mail or signing ceremony to watch on television. We don’t have to make this awful and a burden for people. This can actually be really exciting.

[00:33:50] And obviously, a huge political win. But this could really change people’s lives. I think this, the reaction to Bennett College, with good colleges is proof of that, on a really small scale. You know, when we start talking about 45 million people, imagine what that would be like. It would change the planet.

[00:34:13] We would all be screaming and crying and laughing. And I think that will be very exciting.

[00:34:19] Shanna Bennett: Yes, he truly has a moment. He has the opportunity here to do something major. I know we haven’t spoken about it in this episode, but just like the emotional toll it’s taken to wake up every morning and I’m constantly refresh for “student loans + Biden + updates” every couple hours just to see what’s happening.

[00:34:39] And it’s exhausting. Yeah, but thank you for reinforcing the joy. It is very exciting.

[00:34:44] It is joyful. Keep highlighting that.

[00:34:48] Thomas Gokey: So there’s a couple of additional things to say I guess. One is that we did partner with the Rutgers Faculty Union to try to cancel student debt at Rutgers University. And the administration at Rutgers turned us down. They turned down cash because they would rather just keep their students in debt.

[00:35:10] I think that’s frustrating, but that some universities would take that tact. And then the other thing to say is that, we’re just getting started. There’s more exciting stuff in the pipeline that we can’t talk about just yet, but we will be able to talk about at some point in the future, on the Rolling Jubilee front and on the broader campaign to cancel student debt.

[00:35:30] So, things are moving.

[00:35:32] Shanna Bennett: We can’t wait for all the upcoming news. As we wrap up, I want to take the opportunity again cause I think we’ve done this in other episodes, just to tell you how much borrowers like me, Black women for example. Borrowers in general just appreciate all that you’re doing in these actions that are continuing to get media attention and the coalition building, and all the organizing.

[00:35:58] It’s awesome. It’s beautiful to watch. And Thomas said, I know we’re only getting started. You’re only getting started. So just thank you so much for all the work that you guys are doing and Braxton thank you for the interviews on all the stations that I’ve seen you on, knocking it out. It’s beautiful.

[00:36:17] Dr. Shamell Bell: Braxton is a superstar, man.

[00:36:20] He seriously is. I’m like, y’all, why am I here? I’m going to say what Braxton said.

[00:36:28] Braxton Brewington: Oh, my gosh.

[00:36:29] Shanna Bennett: Thank you so much. Thank you for giving us insights into this process. Again, like Braxton referenced earlier. It’s very exciting, completely necessary. I’m so excited for those women.

[00:36:39] I’m sure you’ve changed their lives. So thank you for your time and thank you for your efforts.

[00:36:44] Thomas Gokey: Thank you all.

[00:36:47] Shanna Bennett: If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, subscribe and share it with a friend. It really helps people discover us. Matter of Life and Debt is hosted by me, Shanna. It is produced by Shanna Bennett, Emma Klauber, and Nikki Nolan.

It is edited by Nikki Nolan and Talia Mole, transcripts and writing is done by Emma Klauber. Efe Akerman created the theme music.

Visit our website www.matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen to more episodes, access transcripts, and get additional context for the subjects you just heard about. Absolutely for free the website again, www.matteroflifeanddebt.com.

Thanks again for listening.

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