Co-hosting Shanna and producer Emma speak to Los Angeles-based standup comic, actor, and writer River Butcher about the reality and loneliness of having student loans, making life and career decisions based on finances, and power of the collective good to care 10% more about each other. They also discuss the impact of sharing about student loans on a public platform and the opportunity to build solidarity when student debt is the great equalizer that cuts across all types of communities.

Reference with links to articles

Transcript:

[00:00:05] Shanna Bennett: Hi, I’m Shannon Bennett and I’m joined today by a very special guest, a cohost, and one of our producers on the show, Emma Klauber. Welcome, Emma!

Emma Klauber: Hey Shanna!

Shanna Bennett: Hey! So we have a very, very special guest today, River Butcher. A Los Angeles-based comedian, actor, and writer. His first half-hour special, A Different Kind of Dude debuted on Comedy Central’s YouTube channel and was called “a masterclass in culture war commentary” by Esquire. He’s been featured on the TV shows Good Trouble and Adam Ruins Everything. He’s been on Ellen, Conan, Comedy Central and HBO and you’re listening to Matter of Life and Debt. Welcome to the podcast!

[00:00:51] Hey!

[00:00:52] River Butcher: Hey!

[00:00:53] Shanna Bennett: Welcome.

[00:00:53] River Butcher: Thanks for having me. So good to be here.

[00:00:55] Emma Klauber: Hey, so excited to have you River.

[00:00:57] River Butcher: Yeah, totally.

[00:00:58] Shanna Bennett: So River, we are big fans of your work, of you, of your comedy. And we have noticed that recently you’ve been talking about student debt and naturally that caught our attention.

[00:01:12] So we thought it might be a good idea to get together and have those conversations. So let’s dive right in.

[00:01:16] River Butcher: Yeah. I feel like it’s a great fit. Let’s dive right into debt. Let’s do it.

[00:01:19] Emma Klauber: River, as Shanna mentioned, we’re super excited to see you publicly speaking out about student debt, your own student debt. And I come from a creative background as well, and I actually gave up pursuing that because of my student debt and I now work at a bank.

[00:01:37] River Butcher: Ironic.

[00:01:38] Emma Klauber: Exactly. A very big pivot. It’s just always, it’s something that has very much informed my career decisions. So we were wanting to speak to you about how that has informed your career trajectory. Have you had to make sacrifices because of that? Has it held you back from doing things in your career that you’ve wanted to do?

[00:02:00] But let’s start with, how did you get your student debt and how much do you have?

[00:02:04] River Butcher: So I got my student debt by going to college. I mean, that’s the simplest answer, you know? And so I went to the University of Akron in Akron, Ohio.

[00:02:16] Shanna Bennett: Hey I am in Ohio!

[00:02:17] River Butcher: No, no way.

[00:02:18] Shanna Bennett: Yeah, Cincinnati, that’s awesome.

[00:02:20] River Butcher: Look at that. I love Cincinnati. Beautiful bridges. So basically the University of Akron was like one of two schools that, sort of like a step, I don’t believe in hierarchy- so take this very neutrally, but, objectively, it was like essentially a step above community college. It had a community college, as their stark campus was part of that. And so it was a little bit of a mix of both, you know, and in a lot of ways I say that with a lot of love also, because I feel like community colleges are often derided unfairly by people.

[00:02:51] And I actually think they’re very important, similar to a trade school or something like that. Like varying levels of education is I think very important, but that’s a side note.

[00:03:02] So I went to the University of Akron and I say that to just give a sort of background of what kind of school I went to.

[00:03:09] And yet I carried a lot of debt. You know, it’s like I went to a school that was for all intents and purposes “affordable”. I really didn’t apply myself either. So I’ll fully, fully take that responsibility. I was just barely making it. Eeking through high school and I just was doing it because neither of my parents went to college.

[00:03:33] One of them got a GED. And so to them, it was something that was just out of reach for them, or like probably it was out of reach for them, but it became possible within my childhood lifetime to go to college. It was getting closer and closer and closer to our socioeconomic situation. And so for each of them, for different reasons, it was almost like this golden ticket. If you pay the price of college, you will get the job and you will not be where I am.

[00:04:01] So that was just, oh, it was like a foregone conclusion that I will just go to college no matter what. Not, they’re going to pay for it. I’m gonna go to college. But like, I’m not upset with them about that.

[00:04:12] My mom did her best to give me an early education that she believed in. And because of that, I paid for college myself. And so that’s how I got my debt and I took out extra debt because I wasn’t able to get jobs that could pay for both things. I also didn’t apply myself to that either.

[00:04:32] So I took debt to live basically, which is, I think something that a lot of people in the conversation, it’s not talked about. That many people take that student loan debt out to serve, to live, to survive, to pay bills, to eat, to do those things, to buy supplies, it is like an all-inclusive thing, you know?

[00:04:54] And at the time, I’m very lucky as a student loan debtor, I was able to only take, like public loans, federal loans, for the most part and my interest rates are very low. I was in a window of very low interest rate. And so I consider myself lucky, but I also had $70,000 in student loan debt over the course of my education history.

[00:05:16] So that’s how I got my debt. Yes.

[00:05:18] Shanna Bennett: That’s pretty common. We hear a lot about folks using the debt for living expenses. And there’s some programs that prefer that you actually aren’t working. So it’s impossible in those programs to actually, you know, hold a job. But especially with universities that are pulling you away from home.

[00:05:38] You know, come to this city, stay here. Get on this meal plan, et cetera, et cetera. So, the bills add up and I think the banks know that.

[00:05:46] River Butcher: They do.

[00:05:46] Shanna Bennett: They know that 18 year olds are like, okay, I want to be here. Sure. Sign me up.

[00:05:50] River Butcher: Absolutely. I mean, that’s why they post up to give people credit cards on college campuses, you know?

[00:05:57] Shanna Bennett: Yes.

[00:05:58] River Butcher: At the time I was going it has sort of changed in the recent years, since I’ve graduated, in recent years, I graduated in 2005. But, in the 16, 17 years they’ve built more dorms.

[00:06:11] I think for the same reason, Shanna that you’re saying, it’s like, oh, this is a money making thing. But the school when I went there was barely, I mean, I was going to school in buildings that were built in like the sixties and the seventies and there’s no problem with that.

[00:06:25] It’s just that it was not, it was not being funded. It was under construction. So I was paying to go to an underfunded school. Like I literally- what is it, not the registrar’s office? But, it’s like a funny name for the financial aid office? Because I was constantly doing FAFSA stuff and it has a funny name.

[00:06:43] It was literally in an old Wonder Bread factory building. I was going to classes and trailers. And the amount of money I was paying for tuition is not a lot of money. My cousin who’s seven years older than me paid, even less than that, you know?

[00:07:01] So they had just very quickly raised the prices on everything and on top of this, my school has had major corruption scandals over the past 20 years. They hired a guy to run, to basically be the CEO of the University of Akron and then he took $3 million to renovate a house to live in and then quit.

[00:07:24] Like the whole thing is corrupt, but you didn’t bring me on to talk about college. You brought me on to talk about a different kind of corruption, student loan debt. But I also want to say just to balance it, I did get a great education because of the professors and the teachers and the adjunct faculty that I got to work with, who, especially in the case of the adjunct faculty, were working for peanuts and not any possibility of tenure or anything. Just thinking back on and like the job they were doing and the way they were applying themselves. I literally had an instructor teaching me logic- because I just could not grasp that thing-

[00:08:06] who was like, I will tutor you. Don’t drop this class. She lived at the Y. This is the financial scenario that is pervasive in, I think most colleges that aren’t your top tier or your like state schools, and people just don’t know. They just don’t know.

[00:08:24] Shanna Bennett: I was gonna say there are very bloated administrative, salaries, from the president-

[00:08:28] River Butcher: Yes.

[00:08:28] Shanna Bennett: and on downward.

[00:08:30] River Butcher: Yes.

[00:08:32] Shanna Bennett: The money’s up about the top.

[00:08:32] River Butcher: Yeah, that’s right.

[00:08:34] Emma Klauber: You mentioned you have all federal student loans. So how heavily are you invested in Biden canceling 10,000? 50,000? Everything?

[00:08:46] River Butcher: Oh my God.

[00:08:46] Emma Klauber: What are your thoughts on that?

[00:08:48] River Butcher: I mean, I don’t know, how much time do we have? I am fully invested. There are many- I am not a one single issue person. I don’t believe that there is such a thing as a single issue because it all has an effect on everything, which is, I think people are easy to dismiss the student loan thing because it’s money.

[00:09:09] And because of loans, handouts, all this stuff. But it’s a very simple equation. If- I’m not a capitalist- but if you want to talk about capitalism and the economy, what is the fastest way to get people putting money into the economy? It is to get them out of debt. You know, it’s just that they’re just funneling money into this void that doesn’t even really exist.

[00:09:32] And because we’ve, it was proven to us through 2020, when, you know, the former president literally just went, this debt doesn’t exist anymore. Like it’s possible, you know, like I watched somebody do it for other people. They can do it for us, you know, like all those PPP loans. And there were many that were given to people that needed it, and were forgiven.

[00:09:51] So like it’s possible, like you cannot tell me it’s not possible to do it. And I think that people who did what they were told, what they were taught to believe is the right thing to do as you know, a citizen and are participating to try to pull themselves up, you know, not by their bootstraps, but also that’s what that’s becoming, and then say, well, it’s your fault.

[00:10:15] It’s basically saying like, well, you shouldn’t have listened to us. You know, like you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t have done that. And it’s like, we created a system to make it possible. And then the profiteers and the capitalists got in there and they were like, well, how can we make money off of this? The bad guy, if there’s gotta be a bad guy in this scenario.

[00:10:33] And to me, I am a person who, any, anything is always good. I would much rather somebody get $10,000 than $0, but I cannot say that’s good enough. It’s not.

[00:10:43] Emma Klauber: Yeah.

[00:10:44] River Butcher: And it’s not for me. Like I would, this is true, if I could sit down with Joe Biden and say look, if you gave me ten grand right now, it would cut this in half and then I would just pay the rest of it off. And I would love that. Because I’ve been paying on it for 15 years. I would love that. I’ll tell you what, Joe don’t give me any money. I will pay this off myself and give everybody else fifty grand, two grand, whatever. I would do it. Cause I don’t, it’s not about me.

[00:11:12] And that’s the way everybody else is thinking about it. It’s like, well, I paid it off. So why does everybody else get it? It’s like, because you’re getting some other benefit somewhere else that you just aren’t lining up with this.

[00:11:24] And so the ten grand is like, I’ve seen people on Twitter say 10 grand is not actually going to do anything to this. And then to weaponize that back to people and say, well, you’re just not grateful enough is just, it’s such a cynical space in our society. That is really sad to me. One time for Christmas, a family member, I’ll just keep it at. Gave me enough money- I needed tires for my car and I couldn’t afford it.

[00:11:53] And they gave me enough money for three. And they said, go ask your other family member for the rest of it. And I was like, okay. You know, and it just reminds me of that. It’s like, I’d rather you just not give me anything and leave me alone. Then tell me like, well you’re so sad or something, you know what I mean?

[00:12:11] Emma Klauber: It’s like entirely help me out of this situation or don’t.

[00:12:15] River Butcher: Yeah. exactly. So that’s how I feel about Joe Biden. I also, here’s another twist of the thing. You know, the man campaigned on it. He campaigned on it and it is now one of many things that he is now, “that’s not what I was saying, or I can’t do anything about it now”. And I think all of that stuff is being very laid bare.

[00:12:35] It’s given me a lot of perspective on a lot of things, especially electoral politics. And that’s why I’m very, very involved in and I have a lot of energy and support for local politics because that’s where you can actually get things done. Like I literally have talked to many times the people that I vote for that I just voted for in this June 7th election, you know, like I have been able to ask them questions and shake their hand and watch the way that they listened to me.

[00:13:04] Electoral politics don’t need to be thrown out the window just because this president isn’t great or whatever, like that’s also the cynical part. So for me to swing and get involved locally. It’s just, you actually can have an impact on that as opposed to just pulling a lever every four years and then being like, well, I did my job cause that’s not the job, you know, that’s just one part of the job.

[00:13:28] Shanna Bennett: Thank you for highlighting the fact that we’re talking about campaign promises.

[00:13:32] Emma Klauber: Yeah.

[00:13:34] Shanna Bennett: He said that.

[00:13:36] River Butcher: He did. And like people who are getting so defensive of him, I’m like, hey, he’s not paying you. So that’s kind of what we’re talking about.

[00:13:44] Everybody’s always like, well, you don’t get to complain if you don’t vote. And it’s like, but you’re also saying I don’t get to complain if I did vote for him!

[00:13:51] I’m just supposed to just blindly support? It’s like, no, this is not it. They work for us. Like, this is the only scenario where I will ever say that phrase, because again, I’m not a capitalist, so I’m not into who works for whom, who is in my employ or whatever. It’s like nobody does. But that job is actually like elected public service. It’s supposed to be a part-time job, you know, like they actually worked for us.

[00:14:14] So he lied, you know, like it’s very simple.

[00:14:17] Shanna Bennett: Right. And there’s just the concept of, well, I don’t want my tax dollars to go to that, but the 45 million of us that have student loans, we also pay taxes.

[00:14:26] River Butcher: Absolutely.

[00:14:27] Here’s the thing Shanna, about tax dollars, which I, and this has just been a practice for me, but I want to share it with other people. Cause it’s really helped me sort of unwind that mentality that is really in there, whether you are somebody that’s like banging on the desk or not, is that my taxes are not my taxes.

[00:14:45] Once I pay my taxes, my taxes become, as soon as that check is in the mail, that is public money. That is public money. That goes to the public, of which I am a part. And so when my public money goes to $40 billion in weapons manufacturers in Ukraine, while you’re also telling me, oh, I can’t help Shanna with her student loans because we just don’t have the money.

[00:15:12] And then you throw it out the window. We have a problem, you know, like that is the conversation that we should be having, not your public money, helping someone else, you know, like actually helping a person. Because your public money is going out the window every single day. And you have no say over it whatsoever, but the tax dollars versus public money to me has helped me sort of unwind.

[00:15:36] Like specifically in Los Angeles we talk consistently, the unhoused crisis. That’s happening in the city and all across the country, and is talked about all the time. And I feel like when people say they’re using taxpayer money, it creates this hierarchy as though there’s a group of people who are not taxpayers and a group of people who are, and then you have a binary of a hierarchy, you know?

[00:16:01] And so, and the thing is like people who are unhoused, absolutely pay taxes. They might not sit down and have the same itemized list as you, but they absolutely pay taxes and they are also your neighbor. They’re also a person. So like this whole taxes thing, it’s just something that’s that interests me in terms of like semantics and unwinding that, and like the energy of the hierarchy of the whole thing, you know, as though, like you said, someone with student loan debt, isn’t also paying their taxes on top of the student loan debt, you know?

[00:16:30] Shanna Bennett: That’s wild.

[00:16:31] River Butcher: They’re wiling out. You guys they’re wiling out.

[00:16:34] Emma Klauber: So let’s shift, what it’s been like as someone who was a student debtor, pursuing a competitive, kind of it being in a competitive career field where you’re already stringing together paychecks, living that freelancer life, you have a consistent amount of students that you have to pay every month, but your income may not be consistent.

[00:16:57] What was that like for you? How did you make it work? Or how did you, how did it not work in instances?

[00:17:03] River Butcher: I just like to clear out. So I went to undergrad and I graduated with, I think $36,000 in debt. And that again was in 2005, so slightly different, you know, that’s a little bit more in our dollars today than it was then. So it was a lot of money to me then it’s still, also a lot of money to me. A lot of money.

[00:17:24] But I also know people have a lot more. Then I went to grad school, in part, because I didn’t know what else to do. To get a terminal degree, to teach at the college level, because that’s what all my professors were telling me to do. And so then I ended up choosing that grad school based on the fact that it was free and I would be paid to be a graduate student assistant.

[00:17:43] I did not want to go to that college. I did not want to go there at all. And, I wanted to go to another school that was like sixty grand a year. And I was like, I can’t do that. I just cannot do that. So that was my first taste of choosing based on money, you know, putting money first. And in some ways it all worked out.

[00:18:00] Everything happened exactly the way it needed to be. But I think that set a groundwork for later for me to go, I don’t know that making the choice based on money is hard because when you don’t have money, you feel as though you have to make the decisions based on money all the time.

[00:18:17] But then there are situations where you have to set that aside and actually do what feels right for you. And then, the money becomes the problem, which is why I’m such a strong proponent of, I want people to, I want everything to be free. Truly. I want everything to be free. Like if I could do it, I would make everything free because I just want people, you know, making art and sitting in fields. Like truly, like truly,

[00:18:40] Then, you know, I carry debt for that because you know, $500 a month was not enough to live on. And I got a private loan at that school. And I then dropped out and worked for a while and I’ll tell you, and this is something that I’ve struggled with in my life. I’ve gotten to a really great place with it, but that my student loan debt was a major catalyst for my depression that I really suffered with through that period of like post school.

[00:19:09] And I applied to another grad school to basically get out of paying my student debt, you know, to kick it down the road. Because when you’re in school, you don’t have to pay for it. And then I didn’t realize how much money that school is going to be. And I was like, I’m not taking on more debt.

[00:19:25] And I dropped out of that and then I just did deferments for as long as I could, until they were done. And got, you know, whatever job I could get and then eventually, you know, through therapy and all kinds of other things got on my feet in a little bit of a way and had a job that was not like super fulfilling it gave me insurance and a steady paycheck, and I was able to just start paying on it. I really did choose, I really started to get into a place where I was choosing my life based on money. It was all about I have to have insurance and I have to have money. So I say those two things, because that was like my biggest, like the moment I chose to go after standup comedy was after the ACA passed.

[00:20:08] Like that was the thing that gave me the mental freedom to be like, oh, I can just get insurance now. I don’t have to have a job.

[00:20:19] Emma Klauber: Yeah.

[00:20:20] River Butcher: You know, I can take some time. The ACA is incredibly imperfect and has been dismantled since 2014. But I remember that being like, because the thing that had just been pounded into me by my parents each on each side was just like, you have to have a job for benefits and money. Benefits and money, benefits and money.

[00:20:41] Otherwise, you know, you don’t have healthcare of some kind and something happens, that’s it?

[00:20:49] Emma Klauber: Right.

[00:20:49] River Butcher: You don’t know what’s going to happen. There’s no, you have no safety net. And I think, you know, something to just throw in there as like a lot of these elected officials that work on these bills and craft these things are not working class. And they don’t come from working class. Three generations ago, they did.

[00:20:59] And they love to beat that drum and tell those stories that have been handed down of like their grandfather, you know, carrying a toolbox to work or whatever, but like you haven’t had to do that. And you should be honest with the fact that like most of the people in your life don’t do that either.

[00:21:20] And you have no idea what it’s like for a working class/poor person to go through 24 hours. You don’t, you just do not. And it’s evident in the way you speak about these issues, I can’t remember your original question at this point.

[00:21:34] Emma Klauber: No, no, no, you answered it. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, that’s really interesting. And I think that’s sort of part of student loans that’s really important to me, and Nikki, and Shanna, which is I’ve only been publicly speaking about my student loans for, I guess, almost two years now. And one of the reasons I felt comfortable is, I listen to High and Mighty. I know Jon Gabrus is a colleague and friend of yours. And you know, he has a lot of different philosophies that I really love. One being, you know, if we all cared like 10% more think about, about each other, think about how much that would make a difference.

[00:22:08] River Butcher: Yeah.

[00:22:09] Emma Klauber: But him just mentioning that he had student loans on his podcast was huge.

[00:22:14] Cause I’d be curious to know if you felt, when you were kind of at the depth of dealing with the shame and depression around your student loans, did you feel like you could talk to other people about? Was it a topic of conversation among friends? Because it certainly for me, was absolutely not.

[00:22:35] River Butcher: Yeah.

[00:22:35] Emma Klauber: If someone, if a friend didn’t have student loans, I certainly did not want to talk to them about it. So to me it’s made a huge difference when, you know, people like yourself have just started publicly speaking about it and de-stigmatizing it. And just collectively understanding that it’s something that 45 million of us-

[00:22:56] River Butcher: Yeah.

[00:22:57] Emma Klauber: are dealing with on a daily basis.

[00:22:59] River Butcher: Yeah. I mean, I think for sure, I don’t, I don’t remember what- cause I’ve talked about it for awhile, you know. Maybe not as adamantly as I am talking about it on this podcast, but I’ve, I mean, I don’t know. I, like, I made a TV show a couple of years ago, 2016/2017, called Take My Wife and literally my character’s, like almost the entire arc of that first season, is that they have these student loans that they’re ashamed of.

[00:23:22] And they’re not sharing with their partner because they’re afraid of what is going to, how it’s going to affect their relationship. In the amount of shame that we have around this thing, because it’s got this word debt on it and it’s presented as like, oh yeah, it’s good debt.

[00:23:42] You should like it’s an avocado or something, you know? Like it’s good debt. Don’t worry about it. You know? Then once you get out and you walk out with it, oh, it’s all your responsibility, bud. It’s the same replication of so many things in our society of like, you know, protecting a fetus.

[00:23:58] And then the moment it’s born, it’s like, well, I, it’s not my problem. You know? Exactly. So, because that’s the thing is, we look at everything, everything is a problem. You know, everything is a problem in this country. And like you said, about the 10%, caring 10% more is making something 10% less a problem. And just going like, oh, you have this.

[00:24:16] I do too. And, and, you know, you were speaking about like, that is the thing is that I found myself, pretty consistently, I think because of it’s funny. I’m like, how do I, as a white person, it is often hard to express this because I am a white person. So I was like able to get into spaces as a white person, but I was not, there’s like, here’s the container.

[00:24:40] I was here.

[00:24:43] Emma Klauber: Yes.

[00:24:43] River Butcher: I’m hooked on to the bottom of the thing. Then people are like, yeah, they’re white. Sure. Whatever. But then I’m in there and I don’t fit. I do not fit with that whiteness, you know, like that private school thing.

[00:24:53] Emma Klauber: Yeah.

[00:24:54] River Butcher: Because you know, my mom works retail and you guys are doctors and like, your moms don’t work, you know?

[00:25:02] And like, they’re still together. And my parents are divorced. All these things, right? Which is not specific to whiteness, but, you know, coming from the area that I came from and all those things, then that just continued through my life. And I would find myself in friend groups, and I was always that hooked on, like, whether it’s comparing that I have debt and you don’t, or I went to this kind of school and you didn’t, or I found myself at the grad school that was free.

[00:25:27] I felt like a charity. Cause it kind of was, you know, it’s like just continually finding yourself in that position. And I feel like the student loan thing is that. It is, but what is great is that it is amongst us. It is a great equalizer. You know, you have it. I have.

[00:25:44] No matter how much we have, at least that’s my approach to it is that, oh, we both have it.

[00:25:50] We’re both in this together, not us versus them. It’s just that, you know, when they come up with these bullshit arguments like paying off rich people’s student loan debt is not going to help anybody. No one that has student loan debt is rich.

[00:26:04] Emma Klauber: That’s right.

[00:26:04] River Butcher: I have been able to eat because I took out loans. Like I was able to fling myself somewhat forward. And I made that decision in 2014 based on the ACA. Had I not done this I would not be here talking to you guys. I don’t know what I, maybe working retail? I don’t know. I truly don’t know what I would be doing. But it was a gigantic risk, you know, that the safety net of the ACA is what helped me do that.

[00:26:30] And I think that public safety units are incredibly important and they would, I mean, it’s shown in the, in the forties and fifties, the GI bill, all those things, all those safety nets that were put in place by FDR that primarily, only affected white people. It is still true though, that those people benefited from that.

[00:26:47] So if we applied those same safety nets now, with no discrimination, no regulation, I think we would, I mean, the benefits would be like transcendent. You know, we would have artists and people creating, coming up with solutions, we would have healthcare, like all those things.

[00:27:03] Emma Klauber: I think that’s an excellent point River. I mean, that’s the power that Joe Biden has, right? Like he could release all this potential. And so many student debtors who are like you are making decisions entirely based on money-

[00:27:17] River Butcher: Yes.

[00:27:17] Emma Klauber: And security.

[00:27:19] River Butcher: Yes,

[00:27:19] Emma Klauber: I don’t think he understands that, that power-

[00:27:24] River Butcher: No.

[00:27:24] Emma Klauber: He has here.

[00:27:26] River Butcher: And he also claims that he doesn’t have it at the same time, you know, it’s like talking out of both sides of your mouth and he is, to me, emblematic of that mentality of the like, well, I had to work two jobs to pay $300 in tuition. It’s like, first of all, you’re a straight white man. And you could walk up to a construction site and get a job for three months. Think of how many people cannot do that.

[00:27:49] Also it’s incredibly ableist to assume that someone could just get a job like that, you know? And like, you’re not thinking it’s thinking top down as opposed to thinking bottom up and going well,, who is the person that needs the most, and let’s craft this around them? But that’s not American society in any way, shape or form. We craft everything around the most affluent and then hope upon hope that it will someday rain down. And it won’t, it doesn’t, you know, cause that’s not how it works.

[00:28:19] Shanna Bennett: Yeah.

[00:28:20] Emma Klauber: Yeah.

[00:28:20] Shanna Bennett: You refer to debt at one point just now as an avocado,

[00:28:24] River Butcher: Yeah. The good debt.

[00:28:29] Shanna Bennett: The good debt.

[00:28:31] But then that’s why I like that you were also centering the mental health piece because I think it highlights that we’re not these lazy folks that don’t care about the debt. There’s this stigma that because we’re talking about it, cause we’re saying there’s a pressure point.

[00:28:47] There’s an issue here because we’re complaining about it. Then we must be lazy. Clearly we don’t want to work. We don’t want to pay it off and that’s not the case.

[00:28:54] River Butcher: Right.

[00:28:55] Shanna Bennett: We heard the mental health component time and time again. Experienced it ourselves, number one.

[00:29:00] Then according to a survey of readers from financial coaching companies, student loan planner, mental health and student loan debt are inextricably linked. 53% of student loan borrowers have experienced depression because of their debt. 9 in 10 borrowers experience significant anxiety due to their loan burden. 1 in 15 student loan borrowers surveyed have considered suicide due to their student loans. There’s even an article I saw where this girl got hit by a car or something. And like, due to her injuries came into some kind of a lump sum. And her first thought was, I can finally pay off my student loans.

[00:29:33] Just cause she wanted to get an education!

[00:29:35] River Butcher: I know because you’re-, it’s presented as bettering yourself. And I think that it, I think that an education is no matter what that education looks like. But it’s a bait and switch, you know, because you also don’t raise the federal minimum wage. you’re, you’re not providing healthcare, the cost of healthcare has risen.

[00:29:53] You can’t get a mortgage. Like we can’t buy houses, my generation, whatever generations even mean. They’re just marketing tools. But like, if I stay in the town where I work, you know, where my job is primarily headquartered, I probably will never own a house here. I’m cool with that. But I’m just throwing it out there. It’s not like these things that were possible and presented as possible have been made impossible. Not by us, but by the powers that be, who want to profit off of us, like that’s pure and simple what it is. I mean, all these men, like my student loans also have been bought and sold. My debt has bounced around to four or five different companies, have owned my, you know, my financial soul for however long.

[00:30:36] It’s just ridiculous. You know, like the curtains have been pulled back, it’s just beyond reason, you know, it’s beyond and no one should ever be ashamed for going to school for some particular field.

[00:30:49] A classic jam for, you know, conservative people. And I don’t just mean right-wing Republicans or something. Like I just mean people and you can be any political party and be conservative. But people who are just fiscally conservative, want to blame you for, well, don’t be a poet then it’s like, we need poets! I would much rather more poets than venture capitalists.

[00:31:12] You know, like at least poets are just putting air into the world at the very least, they’re just putting beautiful air and oxygen back into the world. And if you don’t like it, you can just go the other way. But like, you know, venture capitalists are literally destroying the environment. So I mean, you know, it’s also harsh when it does it just really, truly doesn’t need to be,

[00:31:35] Shanna Bennett: I agree.

[00:31:35] Emma Klauber: So sort of along the lines of talking to friends who may or may not have them, are student loans, particularly as you’ve been tweeting about them, like have peers said anything to you? Because they have them or don’t have them? And maybe are curious, have you had those kinds of conversations?

[00:31:53] River Butcher: I haven’t had a lot of peer conversations about student loans. And I don’t, I don’t really have an answer for that other than it’s the pandemic and just not interfacing as much as we normally would be. But I will say that I have had over the years. And then also now, you know, having made like that arc of television that I talked about like, oh, similar to what you were saying Emma. People were like, I really appreciate you talking about this because I feel- it’s so funny because like people say that about like being queer, you know? And then at the same time, they’re also like, and thanks for talking about student loans, because I felt so alone. Like I was the only person that was dealing with this.

[00:32:36] I was so ashamed. It’s like, it’s the same stuff, you know? It’s the same, it’s the same goofy stuff. And like, the more we talk about it with each other and the more we share this, it’s building solidarity and building community. And I say solidarity first, because like, you can’t have community without solidarity.

[00:32:55] Cause like the word community is thrown out there, when what we really mean is population, you know, like we say, the LGBTQ community. What we’re really talking about at that moment is the population, you know, we’re not really talking about a community space, you’re just talking about a group of people.

[00:33:14] And so to me, you know, student loans are an issue, a class issue that cuts across all of these things. Like all the things that are used to divide us or separate or whatever. And so that solidarity across those lines creates that community of, yeah, no, we’ve been screwed and we’re not gonna take it anymore.

[00:33:34] Shanna Bennett: Yeah.

[00:33:35] Emma Klauber: Yeah.

[00:34:14] Shanna Bennett: I was gonna say I liked that you’re using the term community.

[00:34:17] River Butcher: Yeah.

[00:34:18] Shanna Bennett: I think that’s important: community, society, democracy, all of these things mean that we’re depending on each other.

[00:34:26] River Butcher: Yeah.

[00:34:26] Shanna Bennett: And so it’s okay if I have a problem, and if you have a problem too, we should be able to solve them together.

[00:34:32] River Butcher: Yep.

[00:34:32] Shanna Bennett: The whole concept of, well, I don’t have them, why should it affect me? Why should my tax dollars go over there? Why should XYZ? Well, you know, a portion of my income is paying for your stuff. Is paying for your kids down the street and your programs and all these things. And I don’t have a child. And so, because I choose to not live off the grid, I’m living in a community here.

[00:34:53] River Butcher: Yeah.

[00:34:54] Shanna Bennett: And so that’s how it works. I think it’s really important that we remember that. And again, it’s 45 million people. It’s a large enough group to warrant, I think, the attention.

[00:35:03] River Butcher: Truly agree. And also, the other thing too, is just to throw this in the mix, like I know we’re having a political governmental conversation because a lot of these loans are government loans. But I also think that, and understanding that we cannot depend on these people, those people, the government cannot depend on our elected officials to do this for us.

[00:35:24] And so that is where that power of taking it to them and saying, what are you going to do? But at the same time, you know, the rise of like mutual aid that I’m seeing and this understanding of like just immediate, typically taking care of each other, I don’t know if I’ll see it in my lifetime, but I know that it’s happening.

[00:35:43] That people forwarded socialism is already happening in mutual aid and people sending each other money. It’s already happening. It’s just not the government doing it. And the government is already doing things for others, the people they choose to do it for, they just don’t choose to do it for us.

[00:35:59] Emma Klauber: Oh, gosh. Yeah.

[00:36:01] River Butcher: You know where do you even-? We would be just talking for hours if we were trying to… The endowments and all that. It’s like these people have their student loans. It’s just in the form of government kickbacks that they’ve had for centuries in some cases, we’re just the next in line, that’s it.

[00:36:20] And because those 45 million people could be sort of placed into the box of have nots or poors or whatever and like, so we’re not going to give you anything, it’s your fault. Like poverty in this country is always the individual’s fault. And that unwinding is happening, you know, I’ve witnessed it in my lifetime, like a kid of the eighties then watch people immediately send cash apps to people and just like, and have no and feel good about it and not fall prey to the, well, what if they use it for this?

[00:36:54] It’s not my problem. Somebody asks for help. I gave it to them. I don’t get that’s it, you know? If somebody needs help. You give them help.

[00:37:02] Emma Klauber: Yeah, I think what’s so interesting Rivers is so we, we do a lot of, we’ve had a lot of episodes with members of the Debt Collective, and the three of us had protested in DC at the beginning of April to put pressure on Biden to pick up the pen and sign an executive order. And in our last episode, basically the Debt Collective is doing the work that the government should be doing.

[00:37:24] They’re doing the proof of concept that they can buy up debt for pennies on the dollar and then cancel it for people. And it’s just like you’re saying, it’s like, why are we doing this for them? Apparently we have the responsibility to show the government what they need to be doing all along, which is ridiculous.

[00:37:42] Shanna Bennett: Yeah.

[00:37:42] River Butcher: I mean, I don’t know when- I’m not like a historian or anything, but the government has become a for-profit system. I mean, it has always been, but, you know, even in terms of just like elected officials or they use their campaigns as profiteering, it’s just all for profit.

[00:38:01] Like everything is for profit and privatized. So it makes sense that we have to form these collectives to do those things. And then, you know, prove that it’s possible because the people that we have elected because of the money that’s in policy, that’s able to be in politics. It’s all just corporations, you know?

[00:38:18] So, I mean, it makes sense to me. It’s awful, but it makes sense to me.

[00:38:22] Emma Klauber: So another question I had for you is, when you’re making career choices, you know, kind of considering gigs that are offered to you, do you feel like you’re one high paying high profile gig away from just getting student debt of your life forever?

[00:38:37] Emma Klauber: Is that still informing your choices?

[00:38:38] River Butcher: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:38:41] Yeah. I mean, I just because I’ve been successful. I have friends that are way more successful than me, you know? Like I don’t wanna, I don’t want to cry poor or anything like that and act like that because if I moved to Akron right now, I would be very well off.

[00:38:57] You know what I mean? But like, I’ve been able to cobble together and that’s the thing- it’s cobbled together. And today I can be okay with that because it has come together. It’s been consistent enough. I really have worked on forgiving myself for the debt for understanding that it has been a part of my life that I needed to do.

[00:39:30] And that it has all worked out. That it’s all going to be okay. And that like I remember, do you guys know Sasheer Zameta who was on Saturday Night Live? And I just remember, I’d seen many people do this, but hers just sticks out in my mind. For some reason, like there, she got Saturday Night Live.

[00:39:46] And then was on it and then posted an Instagram that was like, here’s me paying off my student loans. I don’t know how much she had. She went to a very good school, you know, and I was like, I’m going to do that one day. What I have accepted in my life is that it’s not going to be one job. It is literally going to be me paying this off until I make that last payment. And I’ve had, like I said, I had a private loan and I paid that off and it felt great. You know, like that’s the other thing too, is it felt great to pay it off, whether it was me or somebody else, so that’s the feeling I want for other people. And, so, but to bring it back to the gig thing, I recently had a job that I didn’t know if it was gonna happen or not. I was very in the middle of the road about it, I wasn’t desperate about it, which was great.

[00:40:30] And then it didn’t happen. And I was like, well, I’m not going to pay them off this time. You know? And so I just pay it every month, you know? And I have the gratitude to be able to do it. And in having that gratitude to be able to pay for it and to not have a gigantic outstanding balance today, that’s why it’s so important to me that other people get help because they have way more than I’ve ever had.

[00:40:54] The climate is very different. And I’ve been able to have that healing around it. And I want that for other people, whether it’s by them getting an amazing job that pays it all off or the government doing it, I don’t care. Pay it off so that people have a whole experience of life.

[00:41:11] That’s what I want for other people. I was very lucky to make that decision in 2014 to go for it and have it work out. I just want that for everybody, I feel the same way about, you know, the gender decision choices and understandings that I’ve had. I now can walk down the street and be left alone.

[00:41:33] I was not left alone on the street. And so therefore I’m not done. I’m not like, well, I got mine, so everybody else just calmed down. Like I still continue to want that for everyone to be left alone. I mean, it’s making a very broad statement that I’m left alone all the time, but people don’t, people used to just go, “what are you?” on the street.

[00:41:56] You know, people used to ask that of me, that doesn’t happen anymore. And so I want the same thing for others, for my fellow people on this planet, you know? And that’s why this student loan thing is not just like a single issue, it affects everything. Those numbers, Shanna that you said, those are startling numbers for people to actually really spend some time with to accept.

[00:42:18] And it also makes me feel even today with the healing and the work that I’ve done around it, to hear those numbers really reminds me of where I was when I had the student debt and to know that I was not alone and unique in that even in this moment is very healing, you know?

[00:42:34] And, and pretty, pretty big, you know, because I just, I didn’t think there was a way out, you know, of like the student debt. Cause like you find out like, oh yeah, it’ll just get passed on, your parents will have to pay it if you die or whatever. Then I was like, well, I guess I got to keep paying them because they can’t afford it.

[00:42:52] They couldn’t afford the first time!

[00:42:53] Shanna Bennett: Yeah, and I think, you know, just to reiterate that point, I think it is unreal that we’re talking about depression and anxiety and suicide caused by getting an education.

[00:43:03] River Butcher: Yes.

[00:43:04] Shanna Bennett: By accessing higher education. That’s ridiculous!

[00:43:08] River Butcher: That’s right. I mean, to really just pause and think about that. A lot of people go to school to be therapists and then they’re suffering and then to think about like, okay, so then the solution in a lot of people’s minds is, well, don’t go to school then. Okay. So that person doesn’t go to school and they do what in this society currently? Now they work for $7.25 an hour doing what? Being treated like shit, by you in the drive-thru? Like, come on, you can’t, you can’t do it. And I personally think people like I frequent drive-throughs all the time and I believe fast food workers should be paid way more than CEOs personally. Like if you’re doing that job, you are dealing with so much and you should be getting paid at least $30 an hour.

[00:43:57] There’s no job in this country that should be paid less than $30 an hour in 2022.

[00:44:02] Shanna Bennett: You’re dealing with the public and all the pieces that come with that.

[00:44:05] River Butcher: A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And you’re like in a lot of cases, you know, pre-pandemic, but also now it’s like a community space. You’re running like, you know, you go into a McDonald’s and I mean also in a positive way, you go into a McDonald’s across this country. There are people that are there because there’s no community center. That’s the only place that people can go and be in community with other people is in commerce in this country. So anyway, if you want to bring me on to your public spaces podcasts, I’m free for that one also.

[00:44:38] Shanna Bennett: Yes, I love that. And so River, is there anything you want to promote that our listeners should check out?

[00:44:46] River Butcher: I mean, I have a standup special, a half-hour special on Comedy Central, it’s on their YouTube. So if you just look me up River Butcher, Comedy Central, you probably find it on their YouTube. It’s called A Different Kind of Dude, which came out in January. I’m also going to be in a documentary that’s coming out on Netflix this summer.

[00:45:04] I think I don’t actually know when it’s coming out. I just found out about some different dates or the date I thought was gonna happen, isn’t going to happen. But, also if you have kids or you like kids programming, I’m going to be in the show called Waffles and Mochi. That’s on Netflix, which is like a cute little puppet show by Michelle Obama.

[00:45:22] And, so I got to be on an episode of that. So I’ll be on that. So look for that.

[00:45:26] Emma Klauber: I guess you didn’t happen to talk to Michelle about her student debt?

[00:45:30] River Butcher: I didn’t get a chance to talk to her about her student debt. I did talk to her though. I’m in scenes with her. And she was actually quite kind in a way that I did not expect for somebody of that, you know, position with, you know, secret service or whatever. Like she totally did not have to like talk to us as much as she did, but she totally did, which is cool.

[00:45:53] Emma Klauber: That’s amazing. Yeah.

[00:45:54] River Butcher: I didn’t even know she had student loan debt. Did she have student loans?

[00:45:57] Emma Klauber: So she and Barack both did- look at me talking, talking about them by first name-

[00:46:02] River Butcher: Yeah.

[00:46:03] Emma Klauber: But they didn’t pay off their student debt until they were in the White House.

[00:46:07] River Butcher: Right. I think now that you say that I vaguely remember. And so then did she… well you don’t get paid as the First Lady, right? You don’t have a salary to be married to the president. So that’s interesting.

[00:46:24] Emma Klauber: Yeah.

[00:46:25] River Butcher: I mean, what a cool thing to be like, hey yeah, I’m the first president with student loans and then we paid them off.

[00:46:31] If I could say just one more thing though, about creativity and student loans. Cause, I think, you know, I guess I just would say to anybody that’s struggling with choosing between the job to pay for things and chasing your dreams or whatever. And I would just encourage people to believe that it will work out because I think that is the hardest thing to believe and whatever that looks like to you, it is very hard.

[00:46:59] To believe the messaging of you can’t have a safety net, you have to go for it and everything. Cause like that is just not feasible for everybody. You know? But in whatever way possible to believe that all of this will work out, you know, like if you go towards the thing that you want and believe you are here to do, I have experienced that it does work out.

[00:47:26] It’s not always easy. It’s not always fun. And it’s not always comfortable. You know, it’s scary. There was a time when it was very scary where I didn’t know, and I wasn’t sure, and I thought it was wrong and all those things, but I’ve just kept doing it and kept pointing towards what I want to do rather than what I don’t want to do.

[00:47:46] And it has worked out, and I can only speak for today. I have no idea what the future holds, but I have also learned that I can get through almost anything, even with the experience of severe depression over debt. That I can, it is actually possible to make it through that, and so I would just encourage people to find any way to, to make and put into the world whatever they feel that they are supposed to do, you know, in whatever capacity feels right for you. But I would say find that capacity and then do it 10% more than you think you’re capable of doing,

[00:48:25] Emma Klauber: Yes.

[00:48:26] River Butcher: You know, do it just a little bit more. Not so much that you’re like, fuck it, I don’t care about anything.

[00:48:31] It’s like, just stretch yourself just that little bit more because that 10% like you guys were saying, and Jon is saying it may not be today, but it will grow so fast that interest accrues so quickly, like the creative interests goes so much faster and it’s so much more powerful than like financial interests.

[00:48:53] It just is, you know? Cause I worked with somebody that’s been in this business for 30 years and he said to me, do not do it for the money. And I’m like, you’re right. Like I do not take the job for the money. I just don’t. And if you took me in a time machine, back to 20, any time before 2019 or something like that, I’d be like this person’s unhinged. They’re unhinged and they’re unrealistic. But you know, I don’t know. You just have to try it.

[00:49:25] Because I know, I’ve seen what it’s like to live your life fully in financial fear. And I do not want it-, I’ve seen what it looks like and how it ends and it’s not pretty, you know. It’s just not the life that I would wish for anybody. So that is the one, the last thing I would say.

[00:49:46] And then keep fighting for your fellows. Like, that’s why it’s so important to me to try to get as much relief for as many people as possible.

[00:49:54] Shanna Bennett: We’re so grateful that you use your platform to discuss this, because I think if anyone is in a creative field and they are feeling restricted by their debt or overwhelmed. Or maybe they’re going through a period of anxiety or depression, you’re not alone. Like the Debt Collector says you’re not alone. You’re also not alone.

[00:50:14] River Butcher: Yes.

[00:50:14] Shanna Bennett: And we don’t have anything to be forgiven for. There’s no shame around it. And I also like how you centered it earlier, you said something like look at it as something that you had to do in your life. You had to get to get the loans.

[00:50:26] River Butcher: Yup.

[00:50:27] Shanna Bennett: And so it’s just a part of your life. And, anyways, not to ramble, but thank you so much for being here. Speaking on this, using your platform, it’s been great.

[00:50:35] Come back and hang out!

[00:50:37] River Butcher: Yeah. Anytime let’s talk about whatever, you know, but yeah, I’m just grateful to have the opportunity to do it and so I would like to do something with it and if it can even just help people feel a little less alone and a little less ashamed and like moving towards forgiving themselves for it.

[00:50:54] Yeah. A hundred percent like that. That is the ultimate. Like you were saying, Shanna, that is the ultimate forgiveness, is of yourself, you know? There’s no fault here. You know, even though we’re talking about- you can default on a loan and all that stuff, it’s just like, it is just something we did and continue to do, you know?

[00:51:11] And so like, I just do my best to take the judgment out of it and make it really neutral. And it’s just like, yeah, I have student loans and nobody’s better or worse than anybody else. And like, we’re just, I hate saying this, but we are all in this together, you know. It’s been like, co-opted and put on so many mugs, but like, we are all on this rock together.

[00:51:31] So what can we put into the world to help somebody else? Because that’s the thing I benefited from somebody doing something somewhere. Like we’ve been saying about whether it’s taxes, public money, or just somebody being nice to someone who then got in their car, who then didn’t hit me at an intersection.

[00:51:46] You know what I mean? Like even that, you know, it’s about really slowing down and looking at life from just a different perspective of like, oh, this isn’t just about me. There are so many people. Yeah. So many people.

[00:52:01] Shanna Bennett: Yeah. No, thank you again.

[00:52:03] Emma Klauber: Thank you. It’s been so awesome talking to you.

[00:52:05] River Butcher: Yeah. Thanks so much.

[00:52:07] Shanna Bennett: If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, subscribe and share it with a friend. It really helps people discover us. Matter of Life and Debt is hosted by me, Shanna. It is produced by Shanna Bennett, Emma Klauber, and Nikki Nolan.

 

[00:52:32] It is edited by Nikki Nolan and Talia Mole, transcripts and writing is done by Emma Klauber. Efe Akerman created the theme music.

Visit our website www.matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen to more episodes, access transcripts, and get additional context for the subjects you just heard about. Absolutely for free the website again, www.matteroflifeanddebt.com.

Thanks again for listening.

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