President Biden announced a student loan debt cancellation of $10K for borrowers making less than $125,000 a year, along with a final extension on the student loan payment pause through December 2022. How are student loan debtors responding to the news? Host Shanna Bennett discusses with Talia Molé, Justine Hecht & Nikki Nolan the contradictory feeling of celebrating this moment for the few who will get relief while holding space for anger and grief for the vast majority who will not. The struggle continues until FULL cancellation of student loan debt is achieved FOR ALL!

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Transcript: 

[00:00:05] Shanna Bennett: Hi, I’m Shanna Bennett and you’re listening to Matter of Life and Debt. Welcome to the podcast. woo! Today I have Justine Hect with me. I have Talia Molé and I have Nikki Nolan. As you know, Nikki Nolan is the creator of our podcast and our wonderful producer. Talia Molé is also a producer with us. And Justin Hect is a member of the Debt Collective. We are discussing the explosive news today that the Biden Administration released regarding student debt cancellation, as well as his extension of the pause.

[00:00:46] So Justine, we’ve had you on the show before. Thank you so much for coming back. We had you on an episode with members of the Debt Collective. Remind us a little bit about what you’re doing with the Debt Collective right now.

[00:00:57] Justine Hecht: Yeah, definitely. So, the last show I was on with you all was right before the last payment pause was extended. So we were talking about, you can’t pause a crisis, right? We were talking about the stress and the anxiety that was caused by not knowing what was going to happen with the payment pause.

[00:01:13] That same thing happened with this most recent one. I mean, it’s days before the payments were supposed to go back into effect. I just got a new job as a community college professor. I’m very excited about it. It’s full time.

[00:01:25] Oh boy, I’m very excited. You know, there was definitely this moment of look, if this payment pause doesn’t get extended again, then the raise that I just got with my new job goes away because I have to keep paying these loans back. And so that anxiety has been extended again, until the end of the year now. But that’s where we are. So, back in May, yeah, back in May, the union that I’m a part of, United Campus Work of Arizona, at ASU and U of A in Arizona, we worked together with the Debt Collective to do a debt assembly, and we did this in Tucson, on campus at University of Arizona.

[00:02:02] And, it was just this really awesome moment where members of our union got together and talked publicly about the debt that we held and how it’s impacting our lives and the decisions that we make in our lives. We had this really cool moment where people that were just walking around the university mall would come up and just say how much debt they had, and what kind of concerns they had about that debt.

[00:02:25] Justine Hecht: So I think it was really important to start getting. It’s been out there, obviously these public conversations about debt, but the more that we have, the more we reduce the shame around the debt. And for us in our union, I’m a graduate student as well. And so it’s very clear to us that the reason that graduate students and many undergraduate students have student loan debt is because we’re subsidizing the lack of a living wage with student loans.

[00:02:50] If we were paid not just a living wage, I’m a proponent of a thriving wage actually. But never have had to take out those loans in the first place. And for me, my mother was disabled. She had multiple sclerosis. And so my father worked for the postal service in order to make sure that he could take care of us.

[00:03:08] And also, yeah, make sure he could have a little bit of flexibility in how he was able to take care of my mom. He was her full-time caretaker and so, there just wasn’t enough money to take care of my mom and make sure that I could go to college. And so I worked one to two jobs throughout my college career, and still had to take out student loans in order to pay for the cost of college, the cost of living, et cetera and all those kinds of things.

[00:03:33] Shanna Bennett: Talia, do you wanna explain to us a little bit more about what happened?

[00:03:38] Talia Molé: Absolutely. I am just going to pull up here.

[00:03:43] Shanna Bennett: And while you’re doing that here, I’ll read the tweet for fun. Here’s a tweet that came out earlier today from the Biden Administration. It was around maybe like after lunch time I think, but he says “In keeping with my campaign promise, my administration is announcing a plan to give working middle class families breathing room, as they prepare to resume federal student loan payments in January 2023. I’ll have more details this afternoon.”

[00:04:06]And what’s awesome is that Talia was actually able to watch his announcement. So Talia explain to the podcast please.

[00:04:14] Nikki Nolan: I like how we all were just puking in our mouth as you were reading that. All of us were having visceral faces to that tweet.

[00:04:21] Talia Molé: Yeah. A little vomit came up in my mouth and then I had to get rid of it with my beer.

[00:04:25] And yeah, this came out today, but this episode comes out tomorrow, but so this happened today, Wednesday, August 24th. And this episode comes out on the 25th and it’s just been interesting seeing all the things come in and everyone’s reaction and how nobody can work today because of how unconscious yet consequential.

[00:04:43] Nikki Nolan: This is so confusing and we’ll tease that apart soon. I’m sure.

[00:04:48] So Talia you wanna tell us what, what his announcement broke down?

[00:04:52] Talia Molé: So in brief, basically, well, the student loan pause, Shanna just said, is extended. One final time. He said that a lot.

[00:05:01] Shanna Bennett: He said that a lot. Yeah. He said that before.

[00:05:03] Talia Molé: Yeah. December 31. So it’s gonna go up to December 31st, 2022, the debt that he, well, he calls it forgiveness, but we’re gonna call it canceling is, it applies to those that are earning less than $125,000.

[00:05:20] Nikki Nolan: Can we talk about that for a hot second? Why is it that rich people on taxes are $450,000, but like when it comes to cancellation or when it comes to anything it’s magically rich people are $125,000? When it comes to free admission to college, I don’t get what they perceive a rich person to be.

[00:05:43] Shanna Bennett: It hurts feelings.

[00:05:44] Talia Molé: I just wanna say thank you, boo. Thank you, boo. Say it loud and proud because when he was leaving the little Oval talking post. Okay. A journalist said something like, well, what a person that didn’t take loans. Isn’t that not fair for them or something like that. And he goes off to say something like, well, if you can cancel loans for corporations or whatever, then you shouldn’t. Yeah, exactly. Justine. I mean, for those that are listening to the podcast, we are looking at her face right now. And then she is, with her mouth wide open and surprised and yeah, it’s kind of like, Biden, what do you mean? Like, okay, so you’re defending us by saying we can give cancellation to corporations and whatnot.

[00:06:29] You shouldn’t be asking those questions when it comes to working people. And yet you didn’t give us enough. You didn’t give us even something as close to what was given to the corporations. So then yes, the forgiveness only applies to those that are earning less than $125,000. And, if it’s you, you will have $20,000 canceled if you went to college on Pell grants and you will have $10,000 canceled if you didn’t receive Pell grants. So that’s mainly the gist of it. So, if you have undergraduate loans, you can cap repayment at 5% of your monthly income.

[00:07:15] Nikki Nolan: And couples. So, the one thing that’s missing there is for couples, it’s $250,000. And I actually was talking to someone who has only been dating someone for a small period of time. And that person doesn’t make a lot of money and this person, as of this year, started making a little bit of more money.

[00:07:31] And so is this gonna count for 2021? Or is this gonna be 2022 payments? And then this person asks should I get married to someone who doesn’t make that much money? So I can get some cancellation? These things make people do strange strategies. Similarly, when I paid off my student loans and I now know what it feels not to have to make payments on these things.

[00:07:52] And all of us sort of know what that had federal loans, what it feels not to have to make these payments. And now to go back is just ridiculous. But when I had student loans and hold on for one sec, my dog just barked.

[00:08:04] Shanna Bennett: It’s nice to hear Nikki’s voice.

[00:08:06] Talia Molé: I know,

[00:08:07] Nikki Nolan: Sorry. Oh my gosh. So sorry. This tiny little puppy. She’s very precious, but she’s very annoying. So. Let me just, okay. Both of you out. Okay. Hold on. I swear, I’m back.

[00:08:24] Talia Molé: You gotta keep that in. You gotta keep this raw and beautiful as it is. This is what happens when we don’t get the full cancellation. We were asking for a beer. I normally don’t drink and we’re hugging. Yeah.

[00:08:38] Nikki Nolan: I kinda lost my train of thought, but basically-

[00:08:42] Talia Molé: No, the couples you were saying…

[00:08:43] Nikki Nolan: Oh yeah. So couples get $250,000 and it’s sort of like when I was trying to do the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, I got four years in and just was like, this is unattainable. And I sort of had to modify my things, so I started making wild, strategic decisions in my life and all the things that they’re making us problem solve, people who have debt, people who are in this situation, sort of the person who’s like, maybe I should get married. They’re putting us in situations where we shouldn’t have to solve these problems. We should be solving actual problems and I’ll jump down and I’ll go check on the pug, cause it cried again.

[00:09:19] Talia Molé: Not just really quickly. It’s the same thing with me. For example, I just finished this PhD and I’m trying to as always, because honestly, ever since I’ve had debt, I’ve tried to figure out how I can be as invisible as possible. That’s the sad part. So I have this address, but am I really here? I have this phone number, but am I really there, you know, all these other things. And even now, I have the ability to have a great job and, hopefully, it’s going to go through. But the first thing that came into my mind was I better not make more than $120,000. And I calculated. I’m like, okay, good. I’m not going to make more than 125, that’s really fucking, and don’t delete this. The word is fucking sad.

[00:10:13] There is no other way to do it. It is fucking pathetic and sad that a PhD with $370,000 in debt has to think, let me not make more than $125,000 a year because fucking Bide- don’t delete that either- is not going to cancel anything.

[00:10:36] If I make more, because he thinks that then I am rich.

[00:10:41] Shanna Bennett: Mm-hmm and the thing is, originally we were supposed to be incentivized, right? To go get these educations and earn more and this and that, but now it’s working in an opposite fashion, which is ridiculous. And I also wanna state the fact that this man did not, when he ran on, he ran on wide scale cancellation at $10,000 at least that’s what he ran on.

[00:11:02] But what he’s done instead, is he’s offering $10,000 and cancellation with this means testing portion. He’s saying that if you make less than $125,000 you get the cancellation and that’s not what he ran on. But he is presenting it as “yes, this is what I said. And here you go.” No, you’re not following through. And I have a big issue with that.

[00:11:25] Talia Molé: After the whole announcement, I was just like, you don’t expect it because you know who Biden is and you know, the administration. And so you don’t expect the big thing that we all want, which is full cancellation.

[00:11:41] To hear it come out of his mouth. Cause I saw the very quick announcement that he made and he is point by point naming all of the things that we are using on our platform to justify full cancellation.

[00:11:59] But he’s using it to justify this measly $10,000 shit, which I also feel bad saying because obviously we know it’s helped many people, Justine’s husband included and Justine can talk a little bit more about that. So I wanna say, congratulations, you know, I have my beer up and congratulations to that because yes, this is a step in the right direction.

[00:12:24] I understand. And, we should acknowledge the work. And obviously we all know the work from the Debt Collective and others, in the works. And at the same time, we still have to hold space for the grief and the sadness that also comes with this moment because there’s so many more of us that don’t qualify for that. He uses his 43 million Americans finding relief as this big number, which it is, it is. And at the same time, there’s almost the same amount, you know, of people that are not going to be helped at all. And they all also fall under all of those points that he said. They’re, you know, low income people, families that are struggling, people of color. I mean, you just sit there and you look at him talking, and you’re just kind of in disbelief that this moment is even happening.

[00:13:19] Shanna Bennett: I agree.

[00:13:21] Nikki Nolan: Yeah.

[00:13:23] Shanna Bennett: No, you said that so eloquently. I think I’m still processing. So it’s really nice to hear you express, in many ways, what I’m feeling as well. So that’s awesome. Justine, can you tell us how your husband was affected?

[00:13:37] Justine Hecht: Yeah, sure. So we’re not married, but we’ve been together for six years. Yeah, but that’s okay. That’s a partner. That’s confusing. So basically he has $10,125 in student loan debt. And, uh, and that is for a massage. It’s for a massage therapy program. He finished the program five months before the pandemic started or so I might not be getting that timeline exactly.

[00:14:05] But when he was still in his grace period, before the pandemic started and then the pandemic started, and so, you know, his payments were suspended. And so he has not had to make any payments on this loan basically. He’s, you know, a massage therapist now he’s doing his own business doing good and all that kind of stuff, you know?

[00:14:23] It’s great. And, you know, get you a boo who’s a massage therapist, right?

[00:14:28] Shanna Bennett: Yes, actually. Yes.

[00:14:31] Justine Hecht: So his debt, for him, this announcement today, he texted me. He said “I have no more debt. You know, I’ll go through the cancellation process, whatever that looks like. And then I’ll make 1, $125 payment.

[00:14:47] And that’s what he will have paid for his massage therapy certification. So it’s super exciting, you know, it’s awesome. It has a really big impact on his life, on our life together, you know, it’s one less payment that we have to worry about. And then I’m just sitting over here, like, okay, I, I have $150,000 in student loan debt and I had Pell grants.

[00:15:10] And so I’ll be in theory, at least eligible for a total of $20,000 in relief.

[00:15:16] Shanna Bennett: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:18] Justine Hecht: I’m hopeful that maybe that’ll lower my payments when they eventually go into effect here. You know, but I don’t know. It’s confusing because I’m happy for my partner.

[00:15:29] And then I’m devastated for myself and other people in my situation. It’s very confusing. I don’t know how to feel right now, you know? Because if I didn’t apply for an income based plan, my payments would be around $900 a month, which is a ton of money. I don’t have that kind of money.

[00:15:49] That’s ridiculous, you know, on an income based plan, it’s more like $150 or so. Maybe with the forgiveness, it’ll be down to a hundred, which is more manageable, but I’m a teacher. I’m not able to afford more than $100 a month. And so I will just have this loan debt for the rest of my life, because I can’t count on Public Service Loan Forgiveness either.

[00:16:12] Cause that’s not been effective for so many people.

[00:16:14] Shanna Bennett: Did you apply for Public Service Loan Forgiveness?

[00:16:17] Justine Hecht: I wasn’t eligible for it before. But I am now because I teach at the community college. So I’m kind of hopeful that if I can stick it out for 10 years at the community college, you know, everything after 10 years will be canceled. But I also know the reality is that it’s not working for a lot of people, and that they claim to have fixed the system.

[00:16:37] But those fixes don’t appear to be permanent from my understanding. And so, I don’t know what they’re doing. What is that gonna do? We’re just gonna fix it and then unfix it. I don’t really get it.

[00:16:48] Shanna Bennett: Good point. I think he’s proposed that some of those changes would remain, but I don’t think we’ve heard back yet as to whether or not.

[00:16:55] It’s nice to hear a story that’s positive like your partner’s. So basically he’s having the experience that we should all be able to have.

[00:17:06] He had access to education and now is able to basically walk away debt free.

[00:17:12] Talia Molé: I just wanted to bring it back to the wonderful point that Justine raised. And I think calling your partner husband was my fault because I read that post so quickly, but she mentioned a great point about her partner, and the privilege, how this $10,000 was not supposed to help a person that is privileged.

[00:17:34] Shanna Bennett: Mmm hmm.

[00:17:35] Talia Molé: Justine, why don’t you take it away and share with everyone the lovely thread that you shared on Slack.

[00:17:45] Justine Hecht: You know, these things are what they are. But he is a white male and he comes from not a super wealthy background, but definitely a background where they didn’t have to struggle for money necessarily growing up. And so it’s just kind of this moment where it’s so again, it’s great.

[00:18:06] I’m so glad he doesn’t have debt anymore. But then it also is this reminder that forgiving this amount of debt continues structural racism, it continues gendered assumptions about what kind of work people do and who takes on this debt. I get heated thinking about it, because it’s like, at what point will we stop creating policies that continue to build on these histories of racism and sexism. And when, this is the simplest thing, forgiving it all actually is a real way to address these issues. And here we are.

[00:18:42] Shanna Bennett: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:42] Talia Molé: I think what angered me the most was the fact that time and time again, from the speech that Biden gave, he kept on addressing that, oh, this is going to help for people that are low income, middle class families, this will not help the wealthy, all this other stuff.

[00:19:06] He mentioned that so many times deliberately, of course, and yet that is not what is the truth. And on top of that, he took all of this time because supposedly he was talking to people, let’s say doing his research. And we know from many of the organizations that he spoke to, including the NAACP, they were starting, if anything, with a minimum of $75,000 if you really want a cancellation, if you really wanted to say, okay, this is going to begin to even like put a little nudge on closing the wealth gap and all the other stuff. I mean, it was at a minimum $50,000 to $75,000 so he’s tooting his horn, as if $10,000 is his big thing. And it ended only from what I took from his speech to help lower income people of color and all this other stuff.

[00:20:08] And we can tell that it’s not actually the reason why- I told you Justine, while you took the words outta my mouth. Like you said, what I wanted to say was people that don’t need help, don’t need the loan will take the smallest amount. I mean, oh, they might wanna get out a semester early or something like that.

[00:20:25] I do believe that the amount of debt that you have is a sign of the amount of money that you don’t have, obviously. Right? So I, for example, I’m $370,000 in debt. It’s because I wanted to get a PhD. You know what I mean? Because I’m told right. I’m told that if I don’t get the damn PhD, like as a Latina, nobody’s gonna take me seriously.

[00:20:56] And yet I have a PhD and nobodys still taking me seriously and $370,000 in debt. So anyway, I just wanted to put that out.

[00:21:07] Justine Hecht: Yeah.

[00:21:07] Talia Molé: I loved what you said, Justine. That’s why I was like, we need to get you in today because you articulated it not only in a great way, but it’s also something personal.

[00:21:17] It’s not like me just speaking out of anger that it’s only $10,000 being canceled. It’s you speaking out of a lived experience. And I think that has a lot more heart.

[00:21:27] Justine Hecht: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank I’m really glad that you invited me cause it’s nice to talk to other people about this. First of all, because it’s been a heavy day. I think it is just really important to point out how this continuous systemic racism and sexism and like the administration needs to be held accountable for that.

[00:21:48] Shanna Bennett: Yes and I think that’s where my anger is coming from. I don’t know why we can’t all agree on this. And I don’t know why we don’t all seem to have access to the stats because he knows the administration has to know that the average student loan borrower is when graduating from a four year institution with at least $30,000 in student debt. They have to know that.

[00:22:13] So if you’re trying to make meaningful change, why would you pick a $10,000 number for starters? And then secondly, they have to also know that 58% of our student debt, our federal student debt balance is held by women. They have to know that and they have to know that black women in particular hold higher debt balances.

[00:22:35] So if you are trying to make meaningful change for women and if you’re trying to say as a nation, we care about women, then where is our debt cancellation? It should be wide scale and it should affect all of us. And the thing is back to your point, Talia. I will tap in as a black woman immigrant from a poor family. I have six figure student loan debt. That’s what that looks like. I have a pretty great career, but I still have a heavy debt burden. And so I’m not quite sure how we’re classifying people like me as wealthy. You know what I mean? I don’t know how we’re doing that. The doctors and the lawyers that are holding $300,000, $500,000 in debt, they have that debt because they didn’t have resources.

[00:23:21] This is not a wealthy person’s problem. And I know that as activists, all of us, I’m sure we feel like we’re just repeating ourselves and it’s exhausting. And it’s like a slap in the face. And that’s what it feels like they’re completely ignoring the issues and they’re missing an opportunity for actual meaningful change. And then on top of that, not to like ramble, but on top of that, you’ve delayed and you’ve delayed and you’ve delayed as if you have some amazing strategy. And then when you come to us with a solution, it’s like a weak as hell solution.

[00:23:59] Not only that, but you’ve extended the pause and you have some sprinkling of cancellation all at once. So the political capital that you’ve been dangling in our faces this entire time. You’ve just done like an explosion of things all at once. I thought maybe at most he would extend the pause in this situation.

[00:24:20] Talia Molé: And then maybe a few months later, he’d say, okay, surprise, cancel it. Something like that. Where is the strategy? I don’t know. I’m still processing. I don’t know. I’m angry. I’m sad. Annoyed. I have to just make another announcement, because you mentioned something great that brought back a memory. While Biden was making his speech, he kept on saying that his ultimate goal was to continue making America the land of possibilities. And I’m thinking to myself, damn, I didn’t get that fucking invited to that.

[00:25:00] Shanna Bennett: That’s so true.

[00:25:00] Nikki Nolan: Yeah.

[00:25:01] Talia Molé: Where are the motherfucking possibilities for me?

[00:25:04] Shanna Bennett: Right? And so to bring it back to education-

[00:25:09] Talia Molé: I mean, I’m an immigrant, you come from an immigrant family. And Nikki, Justine, I’m not sure how that plays out for you all, but as soon as you leave this country and you have a PhD, or the level of education you have, people are like holy shit.

[00:25:26] Mad respect here.

[00:25:29] Really. Nobody gives a shit, in other countries you’re paid to get a PhD. It doesn’t matter if it’s in STEM, the STEM programs or whatever. No, you go get a PhD. People, societies, I should say in other countries are wow, well, you’re gonna contribute to culture and whatnot. You can go to school no matter the level. But here it’s a business and it really, really, really sucks because personally, I don’t like the language of saying I am in the business of bringing information and expanding culture. I’m not in the business of that knowledge is a business. It’s something that we should all have the ability to just sit and share freely, and expand upon, not this circus that we’re in.

[00:26:26] Shanna Bennett: Mm-hmm just to add to that. I’ve felt conflicted all day. I’ve had these moments of happiness and then like discussed at the same time. I think in one of these moments of happiness, I skipped into my work. And, there was a man there, probably like mid sixties at this point, an older white gentleman.

[00:26:44] And I said something like, hey, did you hear that Joe Biden canceled this and this and this? And he’s yeah, I was really hoping he wouldn’t do any of that. And I said, why? And he said, because nobody forced those people to take out those loans. When I tell you I was ready to fight.

[00:27:01] When I tell you I was ready to fight and lose a whole job, I think I said something. I said that’s one of my favorite responses because I think people overlook the predatory nature of student debt. And I said, for example, are you aware that many servicers have been taken to court over these predatory practices?

[00:27:20] I said, for example, sometimes borrowers would call in and they would be unable to pay. And instead of steering borrowers to repayment plans, that would be more beneficial, they would push them towards deferment or forbearance. To get them to accumulate more debt or more interest, which would then keep them in more debt.

[00:27:38] And he’s like, oh, well, if they’re in court, then they could be in court. And I’m like, well, yeah, it’s not cut and dry. It’s just, it’s wild. I don’t know. It’s unfortunate.

[00:27:50] Nikki Nolan: Yeah, we’re getting so close to the end and I also want to ask how do we educate those people? Why is it so hard for us to get our message out there?

[00:27:59] Shanna Bennett: I think there’s this thinking that, I was gonna say that, like, my experience is your experience. And so for some people, if they had a very cut and dry experience, they took out a loan, they paid it back. The assumption is that everyone had the same experience and that’s not the case.

[00:28:11] And for a lot of us, we didn’t have a choice. It was this thing that we were trying to have access to and we needed to borrow money to get it.

[00:28:22] Nikki Nolan: Yeah. I once heard someone say if you don’t have money, ask your parents and I’m like, holy God.

[00:28:34] Shanna Bennett: If you wanna be hit outside your head. Yeah, go for it.

[00:28:39] Nikki Nolan: Talia. You had something to say,

[00:28:41] Talia Molé: Yeah, I guess just to close up, first of all, I just wanna say, thank you because in reality this moment in time encapsulates or holds, I should say, two very real realities, which one is of celebration. There are many people that are going to be positively affected by this amount of cancellation and that equals one half of our dear friends, Justine’s life, her partner and we should celebrate that.

[00:29:21] So we wanna hold space for that, and it’s been great to be with you all to hold space for that. And also we wanna hold space for the fact that yes, we still need to continue the fight. The struggle is not over until we have a president that will really listen to the people’s needs. That hasn’t happened yet, but we can hold hope as a horizon, you know, as a north star that it will one day happen.

[00:29:51] And then the other piece that we’re holding space for is yeah for the fucking anger that a lot of us feel, that the majority of us feel that it’s, holy shit. Well, that’s great that a small number of people even though the Biden Administration is tweeting it this huge thing.

[00:30:08] It’s a small number of people that will be affected. There’s still a lot of us that you didn’t even make a dent, and we know the full motherfucking story. You know the whole story, and you still made that choice. So that’s why we’re also holding space for our anger and our rage, because this is a moment in time that just holds all of that.

[00:30:35] It holds celebration and it also holds anger and grief and loss and all this stuff. So thank you lovely people for hearing me and us and those are my two cents.

[00:30:49] Oh. And, I have the last drops of my beer and Caribbean culture, Cuban, Dominican, these are the tears of happiness.

[00:30:58] Shanna Bennett: Oh, I love that for you.

[00:31:04] Talia Molé: And for a future where debt, especially student loan debt, doesn’t exist.

[00:31:09] Justine Hecht: Woo. Woo.

[00:31:10] Shanna Bennett: I’m gonna add one or two things in closing. I’m in a place of rage right now. I think I’ve changed moods throughout this conversation really quickly for Biden to cancel $10,000 for every person in the US that’s earning under $125,000 a year. I think I read somewhere, it gets to about $320 billion dollars in cancellation.

[00:31:36] That is a fraction of the $1.8, probably almost $1.9 trillion debt burden that we face as a nation. So get out of here with that. Secondly, it’s great because it’s a precedent set. So to what Talia said, we continue in the fight we build on this win. If you can cancel $10,000 you can cancel all of it.

[00:31:58] It’s the same argument. So that’s great. And then lastly, a good friend of mine sent me a podcast that I listened to, I think last week. And I don’t know all the details cause I’m not gonna remember them right now, but there is a woman that wrote, I think it’s called Some of Us and it’s about how racism basically informs policies and how there are times when we could be passing better policies that could affect us and benefit our communities in a better way. But we don’t do some of these things. And so to make a very long story short, she’s in Montgomery, Alabama, she’s in a park, there’s a very flat area of this park and she realizes that 10 feet below her there is a pool, a now defunct community pool that has been drained and filled with gravel. Okay. Apparently in the 1930s and 1940s, these public goods were offered by the government in terms of -oh, Heather McGee. Thank you. The author, her name is Heather McGee. The government was making, you know, providing things like libraries and parks.

[00:33:05] And in some cases, pools to these communities and across the nation, there are about 2000 of these pools. So now comes the 1950s, the Civil Rights Movement. And now you have these black and brown families that are saying, hey, wait a second, so our tax dollars are also going to these public goods and we don’t really have access to them. Instead of integrating these public spaces instead of integrating these public pools, many of them were drained and then filled with gravel , which is such a powerful metaphor. So instead of having something that we can all benefit from, there are folks out there that wanna trash the whole thing.

[00:33:42] And this is so closely linked just to the student debt cancellation. Here is something that can make meaningful change for the entire nation. And yes, it includes black and brown people. And yes, it includes women, but because we wanna be fearful of what success for some of these people would look like, we wanna just trash the whole thing or in this case, we wanna make this minuscule offering of $10,000 that literally does, in some cases, nothing for folks.

[00:34:10] And I’ll close with that because I’ve been meditating on that for a while, and it’s been really meaningful to me to kind of center my thoughts.

[00:34:16] Justine Hecht: Yeah.

[00:34:17] Nikki Nolan: Justine right before we go. I wanna end with you. Do you have any final thoughts?

[00:34:23] Justine Hecht: Yeah. I mean, what I keep thinking about and it’s related and kind of in a different track too, is like, I teach sociology. And I’m teaching about gender and society online right now. And so this, the first thing that I did when this announcement came out is I got on my online class and I made an announcement.

[00:34:42] These are the items that are due, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And also did you all see this debt cancellation? And I told my students about how it’s going to work and who might be eligible for it. And I’ll let them know more as more comes along. Because my students are community college students, a lot of them.

[00:34:58] They have debt, even if it’s just a little bit, so I want them to have access to this. And then I also brought up the point about, this is a really great opportunity for us to think about how policies reflect systemic racism, reflect systemic sexism, right. Because we can see who benefits the most from this.

[00:35:15] And it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t cancel that debt, but what it does mean is that we should cancel all of the debt. Stop with the systemic issues So I’m excited to see what my students are gonna say about this and what they’re gonna think, because they’re directly impacted by this as well.

[00:35:31] My students are predominantly students of color coming from low income families. This is their lives. This is our lives. And it’s an opportunity for us to really think about how we can take action to change these.

[00:35:43] Shanna Bennett: That’s awesome. And thank you for the work that you’re doing. Thank you for the classes that you’re teaching. That’s awesome.

[00:35:49] Talia Molé: What an honor to be with you all.

[00:35:51] Justine Hecht: Definitely thank you.

[00:35:52] Nikki Nolan: Thank you.

[00:35:53] Shanna Bennett: If you liked this episode of Matter of Life and Debt, subscribe and share it with a friend. It really helps people discover us. Matter of Life and Debt is hosted by me, Shanna. It is produced by Shanna Bennett, Emma Klauber, and Nikki Nolan.

It is edited by Nikki Nolan and Talia Molé, transcripts and writing is done by Emma Klauber. Efe Akerman created the theme music.

Visit our website www.matteroflifeanddebt.com, where you can listen to more episodes, access transcripts, and get additional context for the subjects you just heard about. Absolutely for free the website again, www.matteroflifeanddebt.com.

Thanks again for listening.

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